The Fall of Man

[river]

The fall of man in the Garden of Eden is the foundation of all Christian teaching. Without that fall Christians would not be able to convince people that they need Jesus. Christians say Jesus saves us from our sin. They go to people in Asia, Africa, pre Columbian America, aboriginal Australia and are faced with the question: what sin? How can we convince these people whose behavior and moral standards are far superior to ours that they need a Jesus to save them from sin that is more evident n us than in them? Eureka! The fall of man. Original sin. Brilliant! You’re not a sinner because of what you do but because of who you are. You’re a child of Adam and because he sinned that makes you a sinner even if you never actually commit any sin that in and of itself merits eternal damnation.

Christians tell us that because of Adam’s sin God is just in sending all of us to hell. Without the concept of Adam’s sin there is no justice in condemning the human race and therefore the preaching of the Gospel is moot.

Let’s look at this fall.

God creates man but does not give him the knowledge of good and evil. He places that knowledge in the fruit of a tree then tells the man not to eat the fruit. Having no knowledge of good and evil the man has no way of knowing that it is wrong to do what God told him not to do. In fact his fatal flaw was that he did what everybody told him to do at the time they told him. Eve told him to eat the fruit and he did without delay. There was no wrestling with his conscious. He had none.

When the serpent brought the fruit to Ever her liminal female intuition told her that maybe dying might be something she did not want to do. But noting in her world had ever died so she had no real knowledge of death. She looks at the fruit and sees it is good (in quality or usefulness not morality) for fruit and because she had no knowledge of the concept of lying she believed the serpent when he told her it would make her wise. So she ate it and gave it to Adam.

This is insane. God was supposed to have made these people perfect but even before the fall they make this insane decision. We know what death is. We know what sickness is. If someone gave you a plate of carrots and told you there was cyanide in it and if you eat it you will die would you say “Well you know carrots have lots of vitamin A and other nutrients to improve your eyesight and build your brain cells so when this old cat isn'tt looking I'm going to eat it.� Either Adam and Eve were insane from their creation or they acted on their lack of knowledge.

Then God comes back and acts all surprised. Oh you ate the fruit. Now I’m going to have to punish you. Yet no where did God say he would punish all humanity. In fact in the four or so thousand years between Adam and Paul there is not one biblical writer that attributes the suffering of man to Adam. How is it that it is not strange to the Christian mind that something which had such a catastrophic effect on the entire human race, something that is the very raison detre of Jesus and no prophet great or small thought it worth mentioning?

Question for debate: How can it be just to hold someone accountable when they don't have the faculty to know that what they did was wrong?

[Benoni]

Great post. If I believed the way you post this I would be a former believer my self.

I am a Christian Universalist to start with and what you have posted here is what many believe but much of this is based on assumption not God's Word.

I want to point out a few things you are saying which are very much the norm in christian belief...but not based on God's Word.

We can discuss these points more if you like.

Christian cannot convince non believers they need Jesus. It is scriptural and spiritually impossible.

The fall was God's plan; mankind/Adam had no choice.

Hell is a pagan lie which is a mistranslation of three Greek Words and one Hebrew word and cannot be found in the original language of the Bible.

Same with eternal , everlasting and forever and ever. God's Word is divine and these teachings are full of errors.

The fall of man in the Garden of Eden is the foundation of all Christian teaching. Without that fall Christians would not be able to convince people that they need Jesus. Christians say Jesus saves us from our sin. They go to people in Asia, Africa, pre Columbian America, aboriginal Australia and are faced with the question: what sin? How can we convince these people whose behavior and moral standards are far superior to ours that they need a Jesus to save them from sin that is more evident n us than in them? Eureka! The fall of man. Original sin. Brilliant! You’re not a sinner because of what you do but because of who you are. You’re a child of Adam and because he sinned that makes you a sinner even if you never actually commit any sin that in and of itself merits eternal damnation.

Christians tell us that because of Adam’s sin God is just in sending all of us to hell. Without the concept of Adam’s sin there is no justice in condemning the human race and therefore the preaching of the Gospel is moot.

Let’s look at this fall.

God creates man but does not give him the knowledge of good and evil. He places that knowledge in the fruit of a tree then tells the man not to eat the fruit. Having no knowledge of good and evil the man has no way of knowing that it is wrong to do what God told him not to do. In fact his fatal flaw was that he did what everybody told him to do at the time they told him. Eve told him to eat the fruit and he did without delay. There was no wrestling with his conscious. He had none.

When the serpent brought the fruit to Ever her liminal female intuition told her that maybe dying might be something she did not want to do. But noting in her world had ever died so she had no real knowledge of death. She looks at the fruit and sees it is good (in quality or usefulness not morality) for fruit and because she had no knowledge of the concept of lying she believed the serpent when he told her it would make her wise. So she ate it and gave it to Adam.

This is insane. God was supposed to have made these people perfect but even before the fall they make this insane decision. We know what death is. We know what sickness is. If someone gave you a plate of carrots and told you there was cyanide in it and if you eat it you will die would you say “Well you know carrots have lots of vitamin A and other nutrients to improve your eyesight and build your brain cells so when this old cat isn'tt looking I'm going to eat it.� Either Adam and Eve were insane from their creation or they acted on their lack of knowledge.

Then God comes back and acts all surprised. Oh you ate the fruit. Now I’m going to have to punish you. Yet no where did God say he would punish all humanity. In fact in the four or so thousand years between Adam and Paul there is not one biblical writer that attributes the suffering of man to Adam. How is it that it is not strange to the Christian mind that something which had such a catastrophic effect on the entire human race, something that is the very raison detre of Jesus and no prophet great or small thought it worth mentioning?

Question for debate: How can it be just to hold someone accountable when they don't have the faculty to know that what they did was wrong?

[Ankh]

Greetings Benoni,

"The fall was God's plan; mankind/Adam had no choice."

Yes... where sin did abound grace did much more abound. (Romans 5:20)

"Hell is a pagan lie which is a mistranslation of three Greek Words and one Hebrew word and cannot be found in the original language of the Bible.

Same with eternal , everlasting and forever and ever. God's Word is divine and these teachings are full of errors."

Exactly! A correct understanding of these words (Hell, eternal, everlasting, forever and ever, judgment) would clear up alot of misunderstanding's among believers.

Good day

Ankh

[river]

Great post. If I believed the way you post this I would be a former believer my self.

I am a Christian Universalist to start with and what you have posted here is what many believe but much of this is based on assumption not God's Word.

I want to point out a few things you are saying which are very much the norm in christian belief...but not based on God's Word.

We can discuss these points more if you like.

Christian cannot convince non believers they need Jesus. It is scriptural and spiritually impossible.

The fall was God's plan; mankind/Adam had no choice.

Hell is a pagan lie which is a mistranslation of three Greek Words and one Hebrew word and cannot be found in the original language of the Bible.

Same with eternal , everlasting and forever and ever. God's Word is divine and these teachings are full of errors.

Hello Benoni,

I understand that there are many ways to interpret the Bible. My only objection is with a literal interpretation and coercive proselytizing that is both disrespectful of others and incredulous. Any and all truth comes from the Creator whether it is found in the Bible or elsewhere. Though, the way I see it, nothing in any book is actual truth until it is taken out of the book and applied to one's life.

Yes, I would like to discuss the translations you speak of.

[river]

Greetings Benoni,

"The fall was God's plan; mankind/Adam had no choice."

Yes... where sin did abound grace did much more abound. (Romans 5:20)

That's kinda like a doctor who gives you poison to make you sick just so you will feel grateful to him when he gives you medicine to cure the sickness.

[Benoni]

Genesis is the foundation for the whole Bible. 1 Corinthians 15:45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. Both Adam’s were made from God, in His image and Likeness; the first Adam had to fall or there was no need for a second Adam; that is why God created him innocent; God set Adam up to fall; the second Adam I(Christ) matured to adulthood and overcame.


Soul is not flesh, soul is the mind our intellect our reason, flesh is our body; our mind is effected by our fleshly body; just like our spirit can also affect our mind. Our spirit is the Christ with in us, the Holy Spirit with in,

I understand the traditional teaching that God rested on the seventh day and this is true; but if you look at the content and context of the sixth and seventh day in God's Word and reject the traitional teaching of man God did far mor then fall a sleep on the seventh day. God never rest like people rest.


Genesis 1 (sixth day) where Adam was created in God’s Image, Genesis 2 (seventh day) Became a living soul.

What does that mean; it means like Jesus, Adam was a son of God for Adam was created in God';s Image which is pure spirit.


Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Now man has limited dominion over the creatures God created; NOW, but not like Adam who named the animals: Adam was able to give each animal its nature, power, authority; He probably even talked with them and walked with them for neither Adam or the animal had were fallen creatures at until God cursed them.

Roman’s 8:20 declares all creation; not just man was subjected to the curse.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.


Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Then we get to the next chapter and who how short or long this period is:

Genesis 2: 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Notice this is a totally new day, seventh day.

Gen. 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Now God planted a Garden on the seventh day, not sixth; where did Adam live before? What kind of body did he have; I mean he walked with God in the Cool (spirit) of the day.
Gen 2: 8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
.
Adam did not die physically until he died at age 930 in Genesis 5:5; but Adam did die spiritually from the presence of God Shekinah glory when he sinned.

So if you look at the content and the context of the above there were two totally different days; the sixth when God created man; the seventh where God formed Adam and Eve. Created and formed/ sixth and seventh.

[Benoni]

River. I think I accidently hit the ignore button next to you name?????

[Benoni]

Amen. I hope I did not loose communication with River????

Greetings Benoni,

"The fall was God's plan; mankind/Adam had no choice."

Yes... where sin did abound grace did much more abound. (Romans 5:20)

"Hell is a pagan lie which is a mistranslation of three Greek Words and one Hebrew word and cannot be found in the original language of the Bible.

Same with eternal , everlasting and forever and ever. God's Word is divine and these teachings are full of errors."

Exactly! A correct understanding of these words (Hell, eternal, everlasting, forever and ever, judgment) would clear up alot of misunderstanding's among believers.

Good day

Ankh

[river]

Afr you able to read this?

Amen. I hope I did not loose communication with River????

Greetings Benoni,

"The fall was God's plan; mankind/Adam had no choice."

Yes... where sin did abound grace did much more abound. (Romans 5:20)

"Hell is a pagan lie which is a mistranslation of three Greek Words and one Hebrew word and cannot be found in the original language of the Bible.

Same with eternal , everlasting and forever and ever. God's Word is divine and these teachings are full of errors."

Exactly! A correct understanding of these words (Hell, eternal, everlasting, forever and ever, judgment) would clear up alot of misunderstanding's among believers.

Good day

Ankh

[bjs]

The fall of man in the Garden of Eden is the foundation of all Christian teaching. Without that fall Christians would not be able to convince people that they need Jesus. Christians say Jesus saves us from our sin. They go to people in Asia, Africa, pre Columbian America, aboriginal Australia and are faced with the question: what sin? How can we convince these people whose behavior and moral standards are far superior to ours that they need a Jesus to save them from sin that is more evident n us than in them? Eureka! The fall of man. Original sin. Brilliant! You’re not a sinner because of what you do but because of who you are. You’re a child of Adam and because he sinned that makes you a sinner even if you never actually commit any sin that in and of itself merits eternal damnation.

Original sin and the fall of man are not ways of convincing people of their sinfulness, but rather ways of explaining what people already know to be true. I often say that original sin, though one of the more controversial doctrines in Christianity, is the one that we have the most empirical evidence to support.

Christianity does not attempt to convince people that they are sinful. Rather, Christianity relies on people already knowing that they have done wrong. Jesus said that he did not come for the righteous but for sinners. To establish that someone is sinful we need only ask, “Has there ever been a time when you knew what was right and what was wrong, and you did what was wrong?� When the answer is “yes� then a person convicts himself of sin without any outside help.

The problem I have with the rest of the opening post is that it relies very little on the biblical text and almost exclusively on human imagination. Even assuming that the story is literal, how do we know that Adam always did what he was told? Or nothing (such as plants or animals) in Eve’s world has ever died? Or that Adam and Eve did not have the faculty to know that something was wrong (I will grant that they had no practical knowledge of evil – they had not sinned – but how do we know that they could not understand that something was wrong without actually doing it)? I am generally willing to speculate some, but before doing so I was wondering if someone could demonstrate what, if any, of the opening post can actually be found in the biblical text.