Trinity

[Artiom8010]

Why Catholic Church say that The mystery of the Holy Trinity not impossibility to unravel. But I read one newspaper and found one internetsite where one man spoke that God is a Thought. Holy Spirit is Thinking. Christ is a Word or Action. Christ is a ultimate goal of contempliation of a thought. I think that is true.

[Benoni]

This is true. The first death is spiritual death.. all died in Adam. The second death will kill the first death.

You claim that Jesus saved all humanity from their first death -- because all will be resurrected.

The first death will be killed by the second death. Carnal man does not have a freewill or choice in spiritual matters. He is carnal.

I pointed out that after that resurrection, mankind is back where we began. That is, we are human, we still have freedom of choice, the wages of sin is still death, and there is no reason to believe that all of us will not eventually sin again. When and if that occurs, you agree that we will suffer the second, final and eternal, death -- never to live again.

God will use the priesthood of God to call all he has not called already. Acts 15: 12-17

Heck, even you admit that the unbelievers are not resurrected only to be killed again, but are given an opportunity to come to faith in Christ… right?

Right. What has that to do with this current discussion?

God will destroy death and sin with the Lake of Divine purging and the second death.



Satan has always been a liar and a murderer never and angel. This is a religions myth from Rome.

Satan must have been considered righteous and holy at some time, since He was given power over the earth with angels under his control. Yet, He sinned. Why will we be any different?

Sin will be annihilated but not the people.



Luke 3: 6 (Amp)
And all mankind shall see (behold and, understand and at last acknowledge)
the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

For God has allowed us to know the secret of His plan, and it is this: He purposes in His sovereign will that all human history shall be consummated in Christ, that everything that exists in heaven or earth shall find its perfection and fulfillment in Him." [Ephesians 1:9-10, Phillips].
        

"And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it-- the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him." [Ephesians 1:10, Weymouth].  The wonder and glory of this passage of scripture is such that one can only bow in worship, to praise the Lord for His mercy and love. Such a plan, such a merciful purpose, to gather together in One, to reconcile all things into Himself-- a redemption that is full and complete in every part, and which covers the whole of the universe. 
           

"And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself ; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometimes alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreproveable in His sight." [Col.1 :20-22].
           
The word "reconcile" in the Old Testament means "to cover" or "to make atonement." The many sacrifices made upon the altar served to cover over the sins of the people, making a certain kind of peace between God and man. Yet under the limited meaning of the word "atonement" we do not have a complete answer to our need, for we need more than a covering over of sin, but a complete and finished putting away thereof, never to be remembered any more. "But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year." [Hebrews 10:3]. "But now once in the end of the world (Greek, age) hath HE appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." [Hebrews 9 :26].  In Christ there is no more remembrance of sin, for HE brings forth a new creation life, old things passing away, and behold, all things becoming new. The Dictionary defines the word "reconcile" to mean, to unite, to bring back to harmony.
            
But in the New Testament Greek we really find the depth of meaning for this word, which is TO CHANGE THOROUGHLY. There can be no true unification without first a thorough change. Thus we are not seeking for just a present-time harmony, covering over the past, and hoping for the best in the future, but we desire that the Spirit of God, working within, shall bring a thorough change in us, and then we shall be united with our Lord. There will be no fear of the things we covered over rearing their ugly heads and distressing us again, making a break in our fellowship, for there will have been a thorough correction, and all things made new.  Thus, we repeat, there must be a change before unification, "for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?  And what communion hath light with darkness? What concern hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" [2 Corinthians 6:14-15].
And let us not forget the Tabernacle of David:

You ask, "Now what?' And I say... rejoice, rejoice in the fact that God through Christ has reconciled the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Cor. 5:19), and has sent His Son to be the Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14), this is the "good tidings" of great joy, which shall be to all people. (Luke 2:10-11)

The “few� of mankind who enter the Kingdom of God will be less likely to sin because of their experiences and training during their first short human life. They tried it their way and failed. Now they agree that God’s way is the best way.

Nonetheless, sin is still possible! And given eternity, we will sin again!

Then, under your scenario, that’s the final curtain for each of us – the second death. Over time, all will perish!

Good evening, and may the New Year bring you much blessings.

Same to you and yours, Ankh!! [/quote]

[fewwillfindit]

God will use the priesthood of God to call all he has not called already. Acts 15: 12-17

But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses." The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.' Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

You are aware, I hope, that this is talking about the fact that the Gospel was now available to Gentiles as well as Jews. The text does not support or even allude to this being some sort of guaranteed universal salvation for all mankind. And it certainly isn't saying, "God will use the priesthood of God to call all he has not called already," as you said. It doesn't stop at saying, "all Gentiles," it goes on to say, "and all the Gentiles who are called by my name." Big difference.

Some in the Church were trying to impose circumcision, as required under Mosaic law, upon New Covenant believers as a requirement for salvation. The council at Jerusalem determined that this was not right, and declared no such regulation upon Christians.

[Benoni]

Let me start with Acts 15:14 Acts 15:16

Do you even know what the Tabernacle of David is?


After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


Acts 15: 16-17 (NAS)
'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'


Acts 15: 16 (HCSB)
After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again,
17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord—even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,
18 which have been known from long ago.

Acts 15 16 (NIRV)
" 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent.
I will rebuild what was destroyed. I will make it what it used to be.
17 Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.'

God will use the priesthood of God to call all he has not called already. Acts 15: 12-17

But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses." The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.' Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

You are aware, I hope, that this is talking about the fact that the Gospel was now available to Gentiles as well as Jews. The text does not support or even allude to this being some sort of guaranteed universal salvation for all mankind. And it certainly isn't saying, "God will use the priesthood of God to call all he has not called already," as you said. It doesn't stop at saying, "all Gentiles," it goes on to say, "and all the Gentiles who are called by my name." Big difference.

Some in the Church were trying to impose circumcision, as required under Mosaic law, upon New Covenant believers as a requirement for salvation. The council at Jerusalem determined that this was not right, and declared no such regulation upon Christians.

[myth-one.com]

Satan has always been a liar and a murderer never and angel.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

If the devil, or Satan, has angels under his command, wouldn't he probably be an archangel?

arch·an·gel: A high-ranking angel.

Why would a known "liar and a murderer" be given command over angels?

This is a religions myth from Rome.

Rome, Texas?

[Benoni]

Notice the beginning of Satan according to God’s Word not Rome, or Rome Texas whatever you prefer.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan)

Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

Notice the word angel is a mistranslation and it simply means messenger.

Angel/messenger: NT:9999 inserted word (x);

This word angel was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Satan has always been a liar and a murderer never and angel.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

If the devil, or Satan, has angels under his command, wouldn't he probably be an archangel?

arch·an·gel: A high-ranking angel.

Why would a known "liar and a murderer" be given command over angels?

This is a religions myth from Rome.

Rome, Texas?

[myth-one.com]

Satan has always been a liar and a murderer never and angel.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Would God have given Satan, a known "liar and a murderer" as you claim, command over angels and power over the entire earth?

Yes or no, please.

[Benoni]

No. Satan is not over any angels that is a religious myth. He is over messengers.

Satan was always a liar and a murderer; that is the way God created him a liar and a murderer. Show me open verse that says Satan was an Lucifer. It is all assumed, even thought God's Word declares he was a liar from the beginning.

Satan has no power over the earth unless God will it.

Satan has always been a liar and a murderer never and angel.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Would God have given Satan, a known "liar and a murderer" as you claim, command over angels and power over the entire earth?

Yes or no, please.

[Ankh]

Greetings Myth,

Jesus forfeited His life to save us from the second death.

Not so Myth!

"You claim that Jesus saved all humanity from their first death -- because all will be resurrected."

That is correct based on 1 Corinthians 15:22, as well as Acts 24:15.

"I pointed out that after that resurrection, mankind is back where we began. That is, we are human, we still have freedom of choice, the wages of sin is still death, and there is no reason to believe that all of us will not eventually sin again. When and if that occurs, you agree that we will suffer the second, final and eternal, death -- never to live again."

That to for the most part is correct. Where I come into contention with that statement is what I have underlined. To say emphatically that "all of us" will eventually sin again is to undermine God's purposes in the "new age to come" for which He will accomplish. Do you really think when all is said and done that Satan will triumph over God by bringing more with him to destruction then will overcome and be with God and God with them in eternity?

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Revelation 21:7)

Heck, even you admit that the unbelievers are not resurrected only to be killed again, but are given an opportunity to come to faith in Christ… right?

"Right. What has that to do with this current discussion?"

The fact that you to see at the resurrection of the "unbelievers" another opportunity given to come to faith in Messiah verses immediate judgment.

Given as a gift, everlasting life will not be forced into a never-ending existence upon any, nor will it be a reward given as a result of works. It does however release the sinner from the first condemnation and its results (DEATH), both direct and indirect, and justifies him to life ~ counts him/her as alive. (Romans 3:23-24, 5:18,21. But once received, however, any completely willful disobedience will still bring death... that penalty will be the "second death," from which there will be no ransom, no release, because there will be no purpose served for another ransom or a further trial.

"Under that scenario, do you really believe that any of mankind will not have sinned and suffered the second death – in only a few years?

Let’s say a million years have passed since all humans have been resurrected from their first “death.� Do you believe any of us can live a million years after the resurrection without sinning?"

The fact that there is a "second death" does testify to the fact that yes there will be those who even under the most favorable conditions of a restored earth where the knowlege of God will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea, will "willfully sin" for the which there is no more ransom.

Understand, all will have fully seen and tasted both good and evil. All will have witnessed and experienced the goodness and love of God. All will have had a full, fair, individual trial for life, under most favorable conditions. More could not be asked, and more will not be given. That trial (judgment) will decide forever who will be righteous and incorruptible.

"Let’s say after a billion years, any of us still haven’t sinned?"

The "trial (judgment) for life" will not be that long of a duration. All "Overcomers" will be given to EAT of the "tree of life" and thus then will live forever.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Revelation 2:7)

"Satan must have been considered righteous and holy at some time, since He was given power over the earth with angels under his control. Yet, He sinned. Why will we be any different?"

If Ezekiel 28:12-19 is in reference to Lucifer then he was once the "anointed cherub" (v.14) and was pefect in his ways from the day he was created, till iniquity was found in him (v.15). Yes he fell terribly and has caused havoc on the earth throughout the ages, but with Satan bound and no longer able to deceive the nations, each individual will have a much greater chance to overcome their "trial for life "and be rewarded the "tree of life." But again, the "second death" signifies not all will be overcomers, not all will have their names written in the Book of Life.

You ask, "Now what?' And I say... rejoice, rejoice in the fact that God through Christ has reconciled the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Cor. 5:19), and has sent His Son to be the Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14), this is the "good tidings" of great joy, which shall be to all people. (Luke 2:10-11)

"The “few� of mankind who enter the Kingdom of God will be less likely to sin because of their experiences and training during their first short human life. They tried it their way and failed. Now they agree that God’s way is the best way.

These "few" (little flock) are those to whom have been called out of the nations during the "church age" in order to prepare them to be a blessing to all the families of the earth in the next age. The church is now being tried and prepared to share with Jesus in various positions of royal rule as the seed of Abraham that again is to bless all nations. (Genesis 12:3b)

Nonetheless, sin is still possible! And given eternity, we will sin again!

Oh ye of little faith. Is not God able to do above all that we ask or think? Again just rejoice in the fact that you are being given another opportunity to obtain "life" because your Saviour, Jesus the Messiah, the Deliverer, has come and given his flesh that you might have life, life MORE ABUNDANTLY!

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Romans 11:32)

"Then, under your scenario, that’s the final curtain for each of us – the second death. Over time, all will perish!"

No, not for all, but some.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)

Good day Myth.

Ankh

[myth-one.com]

Satan has no power over the earth unless God will it.

Correct, and God willed it at some time because Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth. He knew that Satan did indeed have control over the earth and could give or share this power with whomever he pleased.

Satan has always been a liar and a murderer never and angel.

Why would God give such power to an eternal liar and murderer as you say? It is more likely that Satan was a highly respected angel who later fell from grace and rebelled -- as the Bible states.

And how could Satan have "always" been a murderer? Prior to the creation of mankind, what mortal beings were around to be murdered?

[Benoni]

I did not say prior to creation I said from Satan's "beginning".

Seeing God's Word says Satan was a liar from his beginning which you seem to ignore; how can Satan have two beginnings? You claim he was an angel; but God word says he was a liar, a murderer from his beginning? Can't have it both ways.

SATAN'S ORIGIN and character of DARKNESS was spoken of by Jesus , that he was never a shining angel of light. He made it clear that he was a murderer from THE BEGINNING and concluded His statement by saying, "...And in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD." (Jn. 8:44; Diaglott, Westcott & Hort, and Marshall's Interlinear Grk/Eng N.T.). If he has NEVER STOOD IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH, and also, if he "...HAS BEEN SINNING FROM THE BEGINNING," as John recorded (I Jn. 3:8, Diaglott), there is no honest way we can say Satan was ever a glorious, shining, angel of light with the name of Lucifer. If this be true, how then, can Isa. 14:12 be speaking of Satan? It is not likely that it is.



Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.



Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel.

Satan has always been a liar and a murderer never and angel.

Why would God give such power to an eternal liar and murderer as you say? It is more likely that Satan was a highly respected angel who later fell from grace and rebelled -- as the Bible states.

And how could Satan have "always" been a murderer? Prior to the creation of mankind, what mortal beings were around to be murdered?[/quote]