Speaking in Tongues

[Icarus Fallen]

All,

Having been raised in an especially charismatic denomination of Christianity (Oneness Pentecostalism), to which the doctrine of “speaking in tongues� is foundational, I’m still fascinated by this charismatic phenomenon.

Before describing some relevant experiences from my youth, I’ll provide a brief explanation of the doctrine (as it was taught to me).

The bible speaks of two kinds of SPIRITually-inspired tongue-speaking:

• -- First, in the second chapter of Acts: on The Day of Pentecost, Christ’s apostles were “filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languagesâ€�, as everyone present in “the crowdâ€� that “gatheredâ€� (this reportedly included Parthians, Medesians, Elamites, Mesopotamians, Judeans, Cappadocians, Pontusians, Asians, Phrygians, Pamphylians, Egyptians, Libyans, and others) were somehow able to understand, as if the Galilean apostles were speaking in various languages …simultaneously.

• -- Secondly, in the twelfth chapter of 1 Corinthians: there are “varieties of activitiesâ€� mentioned (including but not limited to the speaking and interpreting of “various kinds of tonguesâ€�), which are “activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit choosesâ€�. This describes the practices that were common in early Christian churches …as well as those that remain in effect (to a lesser extent, in certain charismatic denominations) to this very day.

Both were identified in the scriptures as works of the “Holy Spirit�; but for the purposes of this discussion, I’d like to focus on the latter type of tongue-speaking.

In my experience with this very strange doctrine, “the gift of tongues� was promoted as a “manifestation of salvation� (or as evidence of the “in-filling of the Holy Spirit�). As such, and in line with certain other teachings involving the consequences for failing to attain “salvation�, it was a gift after which I sincerely and frantically sought! The closest I ever got to receiving this “gift� (and to manifesting the evidence of reception) happened for me at the age of ten. While praying in earnest for the Holy Ghost to come into my heart, I began to tremble and rapidly mumble something to the effect of, “Bubba-bubba-bubba-bubba-bubba-bubba…�. But even though everyone else seemed absolutely convinced that I’d succeeded in my endeavor, I couldn’t help but remain skeptical. You see, having witnessed the elaborate (though often repetitive) tongue-speaking rifts of others for nearly as long as I could remember, my simple blubbering just didn’t quite cut the mustard. Plus, none of the resident interpreters (and we had a couple of prolific ones among the modest congregation) were moved to interpret to my relatively colorless gibberish. To make matters worse, this early embarrassment and second-guessing led to an inability for repeated instances of the manifestation of my personal salvation. So, the issue of my ultimate place in eternity remained a source of great distress into my late pre-teenage years.

To give you an idea as to some of the fancier rifts at the root of my childhood doubt (yes, they were generally so repetitive that I actually memorized many), one dude routinely belted-out something like, “Hundala Shunda Keta, hunda-lala Shunda key (rinse and repeat with slight variations)�. Another sounded more like, “Hasad-diddio-hasund-diddity-hasaya (…etc.)�. As you can see, my pitiful “bubba-bubba’s� really did pale in comparison.

Questions for debate:

1) Does anyone have similar experiences to share and discuss regarding this doctrine?

2) How are some of the more 'charismatic' denominations viewed by 'mainstream evangelicals' today?


Full disclosure: due mainly to my severely twisted upbringing (most of which will not be disclosed in this thread or elsewhere), I’m as vehemently anti-Christian in my beliefs and principles as anyone you could possibly imagine -- including Satan himself! But I hope that won't hamper anyone's desire to engage me on this or any other topic across (and around) the board.

[Icarus Fallen]

Norm,

Can't sleep, so I might as well type.

...The "doctrinal confusion" among various Christian denominations is only apparent to one who isn't a member of any of them, because from inside, there is no confusion; the rule is, "Well, we're right, and those other guys just don't get it." Whenever Christians get exercised about the wide variance of views among Christian sects, the subtext is always, "Why doesn't everyone just do it right, like WE do?" [emphasis IF's]

As is often the case, I think the best answer to that question is another one: specifically, "Why doesn't your God step out from behind the curtain RIGHT NOW, if only long enough to settle the disputes among sincere believers in "HIM" ...in a manner that would leave absolutely no room for doubt or further equivocation as to which denomination (if any) IS 'doing it right'?!".

[cnorman18]

The phenomenon is called glossolalia, and it seems to be pretty well established as (1) a learned behavior, (2) essentially meaningless, and (3) of relatively recent origin, appearing virtually nowhere after the New Testament was written and before the advent of modern Pentecostalism. The "language" spoken is invariably made up of syllables drawn from the native language of the speaker and only imitates the structure of actual languages.

I have seen it. Though some (but not all) of the speakers appeared to be in some sort of ecstatic state, I heard nothing that resembled an actual language. The sounds seemed to me to be gibberish and no more. The "interpretations" were repetitious, routine, and predictable. I was eager at the time to receive the "baptism of the spirit" myself, but even in that situation I found the whole thing phony -- not in a deliberate sense; the people involved in it were clearly sincere -- but in the sense that they were only fooling themselves and each other. I consider it just another odd religious practice. I'd speculate that it might have some relationship to chanting mantras or the Rosary, a way to access an altered state of consciousness -- when it isn't being done just pro forma, to fit in with the expectations of the group.

Though there are a few intriguing examples of apparent xenoglossia, or use of an actual language unknown to the speaker, none are associated with Pentecostalism or with the Christian religion.

cnorman18,

It would probably surprise some, at least those who've read my posts on many issues, that I've had these experiences before. While my parents were initially Protestant Baptist, we did delve a little into Pentecostalism.

I first experienced speaking in tongues at 11 or 12 or something like that. It was something I really wanted to have; I didn't want to imitate anyone else, I just thought it would be another form of intimacy with God.

I remember standing near the alter at a church, along with a few other people. I was praying at the time, focusing solely on God, asking Him for this "gift," and aside from that just focusing on God -- much like Eastern religious meditation focusing on finding one's "center."

Now, I can tell you that the moment I started speaking in tongues, was right after the evangelist from South Africa placed his hand on my head.

From what I can recall, at that moment, while my eyes were closed, I saw various colors, like flames. The best way I can describe it is like looking directly at a light-bulb or the sun and then closing your eyes and you see colors in the shape of the bright light you just looked at.

And, as soon as I saw those colors, I began speaking in a strange tongue I have never heard of. I knew it wasn't a foreign language, but I can honestly say that I wasn't faking any of it -- it was as if words were coming out of my mouth as easy as exhaling. Like I wasn't really controlling any of it. The muscles in my tongue felt strained because I had never rolled 'r's' like that before.

It was so surreal. And at the same time, I felt elated. Dopamine and adrenaline must have kicked in or something. It was just un-real.

Now, if you take it as believing it was the Holy Spirit or just phenomenon of the brain, it was real. I wasn't sitting around trying to imitate others in the room. For me, despite a full church-load of people, there was only me and God.

I have never since experienced tongue-speaking with such elation and zen as I did then.


I understand that it is a bizarre religious tradition for some people. Ever since then I have spoken in tongues from time to time, privately in prayer. I have justified this practice as Christian because it is spoken of in the New Testament.

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. . . For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful [doesn't understand it].

Now, I must confess that I still pray in tongues from time to time, privately of course... and here's why.

When I'm expressing my deepest emotions to God, sometimes English simply doesn't work. Sometimes, words can't express my joy, love, pain, etc.

So, during those times, you can bet I do groan and speak in gibberish. Most of the time such expressions are as quiet as a whisper. But they are sincere attempts to commune with God.


I would almost liken it to whispering phrases in Spanish in a lover's ear. There's something about it that's emotional. They don't call them romance languages for nothing.

My "tongues" sound somewhat Arabic somewhat Latin, or whatever. Sometimes when I desire to seek God, I will say Abba or Ellah. Of course I've heard that abba means "daddy" in Hebrew. And "Allah" means God in Arabic. And El was one of Gods names for ancient Israelites.

For some reason, not sure why, I often begin "sentences" with, "Esta."

...

And something else that I find weird is that, sometimes when I hear Arabic music, or even the Islamic call to prayer... it oddly feels spiritual.

It's a foreign language. It's musical, rhythmic. It's "spiritual." It's "emotional." I guess that's why. I don't know.


Also, there's obviously a natural reason why I continue to do it, or feel inclined to do it, or feel spiritual while doing it or hearing other religious prayers etc...

Maybe there's a spiritual segment of the brain that is closely associated with the language center. I have no idea really, but it intrigues me.


I hope no one things I'm crazy now. I'm not. I'm quite rational.

I'm just trying to explain an aspect of my spirituality. I'm glad there is a natural explanation for it.

It's quite true that the charismatic movement, as it was called 20 years ago or so, was visible in all the Christian denominations and was (and is, as far as I know) not limited to Pentecostalism. It's also very true that many Christians experience this as a very real and deeply spiritual phenomenon. I have no warrant to say otherwise, and testimony like yours is very powerful. The article I referenced, as well as my own experiences, seems primarily to be about glossolalia as it relates to Pentecostalism, where it seems (to me) to be more the social norm than a genuine mental or spiritual phenomenon.

For myself, I regard it as a form of mysticism, which I affirm and embrace as real. Whether it is from God, or from aspects or abilities of the human mind, I cannot say; but real it apparently is. I have experienced altered states of consciousness myself, other than those accessible with psychoactive substances (which I consider real as well), and far be it from me to call them all illusory or hallucination.

Language skills are very clearly among the highest functions of the human brain, and are among the traits that distinguish us from the "lower animals"; and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that those brain centers are related to the subjective spiritual sense.

I too enjoy Arabian music; I truly prefer it to the traditional Jewish klezmer music, which always sounded unpleasant to me; Dixieland on amphetamines.

I had no intention of denigrating your experiences. One of my first (at 3 or so) insights was that no human can or will ever get inside the skull of another, and no one has a right to judge or assume anything about another's thoughts or subjective experience. In a profoundly real way, we are all alone. A sense of being alone with God is, for many, a relief from that aloneness; and, again, whether it is real or not, in a particular person, no one can or has the right to say.

[cnorman18]

Norm,

The "inconsistency" at the heart of the matter, and the one I've been alluding to all along, crosses denominational boundaries. It is that between the widely promoted/commonly accepted views on the nature of the Christians' God ...and the portrait of "HIM" that's actually painted in the scriptures. So, when I spoke earlier of "placing myself in the shoes of a mainstream believer and then moving from commonly held premises among Christians to not-so-commonly-held conclusions (I.E. logically-consistent ones)", and then specified one such conclusion (namely an omniscient, all-powerful God's direct responsibility for the perfectly natural fruition of "HIS" failure to erase the potential for any confusion where "HIS" own proscription for humanity is concerned -- a failure continually exacerbated by "HIS" apparent reluctance to step out of hiding and clear up any or all of those conflicts once and for all), I was actually appealing to the premises (specifically the notion of “God� you’ve now conceded is every bit as widespread among Christians as I’ve claimed it to be).

Now, to break it down a bit further, logic dictates: that an “all-knowing� God must have foreseen all of the bloodshed and schisms that would eventually result directly from the manner in which “HE� presented "HIS Word" to humanity; and furthermore, that an “all-powerful� God -- particularly one who supposedly dictated (via 'Divine Inspiration') that a universal acknowledgement of Christ’s Lordship is not only possible but immanent (“every knee� and “every tongue�, etc.) – must have been able to avoid the baffling presentation if “HE� so desired. The question as to why “HE� didn’t ...is immaterial to the overwhelming amount of evidence that “HE� didn’t; and no possible answer can circumvent “HIS� responsibility if “HE� didn’t.

Norm,

Can't sleep, so I might as well type.

...The "doctrinal confusion" among various Christian denominations is only apparent to one who isn't a member of any of them, because from inside, there is no confusion; the rule is, "Well, we're right, and those other guys just don't get it." Whenever Christians get exercised about the wide variance of views among Christian sects, the subtext is always, "Why doesn't everyone just do it right, like WE do?" [emphasis IF's]

As is often the case, I think the best answer to that question is another one: specifically, "Why doesn't your God step out from behind the curtain RIGHT NOW, if only long enough to settle the disputes among sincere believers in "HIM" ...in a manner that would leave absolutely no room for doubt or further equivocation as to which denomination (if any) IS 'doing it right'?!".

And what you’ve written here is a perfectly valid criticism of fundamentalist belief. Before, it seemed to be phrased as a criticism of hypocrisy or conscious self-contradiction, which seemed (and still seems) to me to be inaccurate. As a criticism of its illogicality, it’s perfectly on point. But that’s a fundamentally different matter, you’ll excuse the expression.

The fact is, for most if not all fundamentalists, any question that begins with, “Why doesn’t God…� is out of court from the get-go. Besides the attributes that you and others correctly point out are usually hung on God -- omniscience, omnipotence, total goodness, perfection and benevolence, and so on, which are of course self-contradictory too -- another is total sovereignty; God does as He chooses, answers to no one, and is not to be questioned or criticized. WHY that is so isn’t to be questioned either; it just IS.

The usual answer to logical contradictions in fundamentalism is held to be “It’s a mystery that we can’t understand.� The internal self-contradiction of a God who demands that all hold the proper beliefs, but simultaneously refuses to make the proper beliefs clear to all who seek to know them, is very real -- but is not the most obvious or glaring of those self-contradictions. For my money, that would be omniscience, omnipotence, and benevolence all existing in the same Supreme Being. The problem is called “theodicy,� and is probably the oldest problem in Christianity.

That problem simply doesn’t appear in modern or liberal Judaism, nor in its Pharisaic roots. Jews, for a very long time, have held that none of those attributes can be said to be known to be true of God. Scripture itself seems to indicate that (1) God doesn’t know everything, especially including human intentions or any future that depends on human decision; (2) God can’t do everything, and is constrained by something that can only be called “fate� or “necessity� or even “chance,� as well as his inability or choice (pick one) to intervene and thwart the intentions or acts of humans; and (3) God is not necessarily “all-loving,� and is the Creator of both good and evil (which is specifically said in Isaiah 45:7). When Maimonides drew up his famous list of the Thirteen Points, though omniscience and omnipotence were on it, “omni-benevolence� -- the quality of being “all-loving� -- didn’t make the cut. Of the other thirteen, not a single one is or was undisputed, even in his own day.

One reason I have chosen Judaism as my own path, or perspective, or whatever, is that by my lights it makes sense. We don’t, as a rule, make pronouncements about things no one can know -- the nature of God, of a life after death, the nature of the human soul -- and in fact we add “if any� as a subtext to all of those. For the Bible, we say, “This is our tradition, our literary and philosophical heritage, and we take it seriously; but we take it with a grain of salt, too, and we remember where it came from -- from men like us, of another time and place, long ago and far away.� The main focus of our religion is ethical behavior -- “what do I do now?� is always, but always, the central and essential point. Why is less important, as far as obligations to God are concerned; obligation to other humans is the standard. As one of our great rabbis, Hillel -- a contemporary of Jesus, which is not a coincidence -- said, “Do not do to others that which you do not wish to be done to you; that is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary. Now go and study.�

There’s little self-contradiction in Judaic belief or practice, especially since beliefs and practices are more or less optional. The one thing, in the present age, that IS forbidden is to buy into the self-contradicting and Bible-contradicting “messiahship� of Jesus, which entails a turning away from almost all of the principles outlined above. Suddenly, ethics takes a back seat to dogma, the proper beliefs become paramount, and everything that we regard as speculation and matters of taste become the primary focus; the attributes of God, the nature of the Afterlife, the fate of the “soul,� allathat. Not for me, and not for Jews who wish to remain Jews.

Sorry about the long parenthesis; but I often feel obligated to remind our readers that fundamentalist Christianity, and in fact Christianity of ANY kind, is not the only option among Western religions.

[Icarus Fallen]

Norm,

And what you’ve written here is a perfectly valid criticism of fundamentalist belief. Before, it seemed to be phrased as a criticism of hypocrisy or conscious self-contradiction, which seemed (and still seems) to me to be inaccurate.

The scope of my criticism isn't limited to "fundamentalist belief(s)", mainly because the God concept at issue isn't the sole property of the fundamentalists (not by a longshot). Moreover, any school of thought that holds fast to the OMNIMAX view of God, and to the doctrine that the bible is (to ANY degree) a product of 'divine inspiration' (irrespective of any additional tenets as to the bible's role as a proscriptive guide for humanity), is bound to the logical implications of those two views (neither of which is explicitly OR implicitly a strictly fundamentalist view). Whether the attributes of that God concept are self-contradictory or not, and whether or not the doctrine of 'divine inspiration' holds any water whatsoever, are debatable points. What's not debatable is the consequent responsibility born of the synthesis of those mainstream views.

[Icarus Fallen]

Norm,

As for "the long parenthesis", I think it's telling that you're a "former Christian minister"; and I'm confident that you're consistent where the tenets of your current path are concerned. My beef isn't with believers like you.

[cnorman18]

Norm,

And what you’ve written here is a perfectly valid criticism of fundamentalist belief. Before, it seemed to be phrased as a criticism of hypocrisy or conscious self-contradiction, which seemed (and still seems) to me to be inaccurate.

The scope of my criticism isn't limited to "fundamentalist belief(s)", mainly because the God concept at issue isn't the sole property of the fundamentalists (not by a longshot). Moreover, any school of thought that holds fast to the OMNIMAX view of God, and to the doctrine that the bible is (to ANY degree) a product of 'divine inspiration' (irrespective of any additional tenets as to the bible's role as a proscriptive guide for humanity), is bound to the logical implications of those two views (neither of which is explicitly OR implicitly a strictly fundamentalist view). Whether the attributes of that God concept are self-contradictory or not, and whether or not the doctrine of 'divine inspiration' holds any water whatsoever, are debatable points. What's not debatable is the consequent responsibility born of the synthesis of those mainstream views.

I quite agree with you, but before you can debate a fundamentalist (or a mainstream Christian, for the matter of that) on the subject of contradictions in his basic beliefs about the nature of God, you've got to convince him that there are some. As it stands, the only people you're addressing are those who already agree with you. Me, for instance. The Christian, on the other hand, shrugs, says, "Yes, it's a mystery; we don't understand God's reasons, and He answers to no one." Then he goes on his merry way and leaves you doing one of these numbers:

](*,)

Whatever crumbles your cookie, dude. Me, I prefer to talk to people who can hear me.

[cnorman18]

Norm,

As for "the long parenthesis", I think it's telling that you're a "former Christian minister"; and I'm confident that you're consistent where the tenets of your current path are concerned. My beef isn't with believers like you.

I understand that, too; and I also understand that, like so many here who have no beef with my perspective, that that doesn't mean that you buy into it, either. Of course, in Jewish belief, we can all crumble our respective cookies as we choose. I like that about it, too.

[Slopeshoulder]

The phenomenon is called glossolalia, and it seems to be pretty well established as (1) a learned behavior, (2) essentially meaningless, and (3) of relatively recent origin, appearing virtually nowhere after the New Testament was written and before the advent of modern Pentecostalism. The "language" spoken is invariably made up of syllables drawn from the native language of the speaker and only imitates the structure of actual languages.

I have seen it. Though some (but not all) of the speakers appeared to be in some sort of ecstatic state, I heard nothing that resembled an actual language. The sounds seemed to me to be gibberish and no more. The "interpretations" were repetitious, routine, and predictable. I was eager at the time to receive the "baptism of the spirit" myself, but even in that situation I found the whole thing phony -- not in a deliberate sense; the people involved in it were clearly sincere -- but in the sense that they were only fooling themselves and each other. I consider it just another odd religious practice. I'd speculate that it might have some relationship to chanting mantras or the Rosary, a way to access an altered state of consciousness -- when it isn't being done just pro forma, to fit in with the expectations of the group.

Though there are a few intriguing examples of apparent xenoglossia, or use of an actual language unknown to the speaker, none are associated with Pentecostalism or with the Christian religion.

cnorman18,

It would probably surprise some, at least those who've read my posts on many issues, that I've had these experiences before. While my parents were initially Protestant Baptist, we did delve a little into Pentecostalism.

I first experienced speaking in tongues at 11 or 12 or something like that. It was something I really wanted to have; I didn't want to imitate anyone else, I just thought it would be another form of intimacy with God.

I remember standing near the alter at a church, along with a few other people. I was praying at the time, focusing solely on God, asking Him for this "gift," and aside from that just focusing on God -- much like Eastern religious meditation focusing on finding one's "center."

Now, I can tell you that the moment I started speaking in tongues, was right after the evangelist from South Africa placed his hand on my head.

From what I can recall, at that moment, while my eyes were closed, I saw various colors, like flames. The best way I can describe it is like looking directly at a light-bulb or the sun and then closing your eyes and you see colors in the shape of the bright light you just looked at.

And, as soon as I saw those colors, I began speaking in a strange tongue I have never heard of. I knew it wasn't a foreign language, but I can honestly say that I wasn't faking any of it -- it was as if words were coming out of my mouth as easy as exhaling. Like I wasn't really controlling any of it. The muscles in my tongue felt strained because I had never rolled 'r's' like that before.

It was so surreal. And at the same time, I felt elated. Dopamine and adrenaline must have kicked in or something. It was just un-real.

Now, if you take it as believing it was the Holy Spirit or just phenomenon of the brain, it was real. I wasn't sitting around trying to imitate others in the room. For me, despite a full church-load of people, there was only me and God.

I have never since experienced tongue-speaking with such elation and zen as I did then.


I understand that it is a bizarre religious tradition for some people. Ever since then I have spoken in tongues from time to time, privately in prayer. I have justified this practice as Christian because it is spoken of in the New Testament.

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. . . For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful [doesn't understand it].

Now, I must confess that I still pray in tongues from time to time, privately of course... and here's why.

When I'm expressing my deepest emotions to God, sometimes English simply doesn't work. Sometimes, words can't express my joy, love, pain, etc.

So, during those times, you can bet I do groan and speak in gibberish. Most of the time such expressions are as quiet as a whisper. But they are sincere attempts to commune with God.


I would almost liken it to whispering phrases in Spanish in a lover's ear. There's something about it that's emotional. They don't call them romance languages for nothing.

My "tongues" sound somewhat Arabic somewhat Latin, or whatever. Sometimes when I desire to seek God, I will say Abba or Ellah. Of course I've heard that abba means "daddy" in Hebrew. And "Allah" means God in Arabic. And El was one of Gods names for ancient Israelites.

For some reason, not sure why, I often begin "sentences" with, "Esta."

...

And something else that I find weird is that, sometimes when I hear Arabic music, or even the Islamic call to prayer... it oddly feels spiritual.

It's a foreign language. It's musical, rhythmic. It's "spiritual." It's "emotional." I guess that's why. I don't know.


Also, there's obviously a natural reason why I continue to do it, or feel inclined to do it, or feel spiritual while doing it or hearing other religious prayers etc...

Maybe there's a spiritual segment of the brain that is closely associated with the language center. I have no idea really, but it intrigues me.


I hope no one things I'm crazy now. I'm not. I'm quite rational.

I'm just trying to explain an aspect of my spirituality. I'm glad there is a natural explanation for it.

Apropos of whatever, I just want to take a moment to thank you for your honesty, your guts, and your account. I accept that you are rational, and it makes your account that much more interesting and valuable. We musicians know that sometimes words can't say it and so that's when it's time for a good solo or scat singing to express wordlessly but audibly one's feelings spontaneously (I find that Richard Thompson's 10 best and most incendiary guitar solos start where the words leave off). And whether it is the spirit or the brain, it is, as you say, real, and I would imagine a profound experience. If I didn't have a boatload of guitars and 41 years blessed experience with them, I might well do the same as you. Thanks for sharing.

[horiturk]

i've seen people speaking in tongues,what a load of garbage

[cnorman18]

MODERATOR FORMAL WARNING

You have been warned before about unproductive and inflammatory one-liners. You have continued to post these, here and in another post. I shall be posting a warning there too.

NOTE: This is a FORMAL WARNING. If you persist, you will be placed on probation and eventually banned.

Do not do this again.

i've seen people speaking in tongues,what a load of garbage