Pastor of Georgia Mega-church comes out

[micatala]

http://newsroom.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/1 ... =allsearch


Questions for debate.

Will this have a measurable effect in changing attitudes within his church, or in the wider evangelical community?

[East of Eden]

I doubt that this will change the attitudes of Evangelicals, but time will. Numerous polls show that the younger generations are overwhelmingly rejecting the bigoted (and often hypocritical) anti-gay message of Evangelicalism. This is just the latest social justice issue (e.g. slavery, feminism, etc) on which the conservative church is doggedly defending the wrong side.

I think it ought to be noted that the liberal churches have consistently been on the RIGHT side of all those issues; slavery, civil rights, feminism, and now gay/lesbian rights. For the record, so have modern Jews. Fundamentalist religion can be toxic and counterprogressive, and very often is; but that is not necessarily true of Christianity as a whole, nor of religion in general.

Well, yes and no. The Episcopal communion is dividing over the ordination of Gene Robinson, and ELCA churches are withdrawing from their synod over the same issue. I suppose what remains is the liberal church, but there is not exactly consensus within the liberal Christian movement.

Point taken, but I hope you took MY point as well; not all Christians are reactionaries and bigots.

I never made such an assertion. However, I would gladly defend an assertion that Evangelicalism embraces exclusivism, intolerance and bigotry.

That in itself is an exlusivist, intolerant judgement.

[East of Eden]

I doubt that this will change the attitudes of Evangelicals, but time will. Numerous polls show that the younger generations are overwhelmingly rejecting the bigoted (and often hypocritical) anti-gay message of Evangelicalism. This is just the latest social justice issue (e.g. slavery, feminism, etc) on which the conservative church is doggedly defending the wrong side.

I think it ought to be noted that the liberal churches have consistently been on the RIGHT side of all those issues; slavery, civil rights, feminism, and now gay/lesbian rights. For the record, so have modern Jews. Fundamentalist religion can be toxic and counterprogressive, and very often is; but that is not necessarily true of Christianity as a whole, nor of religion in general.

Well, yes and no. The Episcopal communion is dividing over the ordination of Gene Robinson, and ELCA churches are withdrawing from their synod over the same issue. I suppose what remains is the liberal church, but there is not exactly consensus within the liberal Christian movement.

Point taken, but I hope you took MY point as well; not all Christians are reactionaries and bigots.

When has there ever been consensus among Christians on anything? That's why there are 33,000+ denominations. Every time there's an argument, one bunch withdraws from their church, goes down the street, and starts a new one distinct from the old bunch. Those schisms have been about social and ethical issues as often as doctrinal ones. Don't forget that the Episcopal Church basically got its start because Henry VIII wanted to get married again.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

The idea there is no consensus among Christians is competely overblown. I would say easily over 90% of the Christian world would agree on the essentials of the faith as expressed in the creeds, whether or not they say them in church every Sunday. There are different ideas among secondary issues such as church music, what day to worship on, drinking, etc. I though diversity was good?

Very, very few of those 33,000 demonination would say they are going to heavan and all else are not. To quote Billy Graham, God's people are found in all denominations.

[cnorman18]

I doubt that this will change the attitudes of Evangelicals, but time will. Numerous polls show that the younger generations are overwhelmingly rejecting the bigoted (and often hypocritical) anti-gay message of Evangelicalism. This is just the latest social justice issue (e.g. slavery, feminism, etc) on which the conservative church is doggedly defending the wrong side.

I think it ought to be noted that the liberal churches have consistently been on the RIGHT side of all those issues; slavery, civil rights, feminism, and now gay/lesbian rights. For the record, so have modern Jews. Fundamentalist religion can be toxic and counterprogressive, and very often is; but that is not necessarily true of Christianity as a whole, nor of religion in general.

Well, yes and no. The Episcopal communion is dividing over the ordination of Gene Robinson, and ELCA churches are withdrawing from their synod over the same issue. I suppose what remains is the liberal church, but there is not exactly consensus within the liberal Christian movement.

Point taken, but I hope you took MY point as well; not all Christians are reactionaries and bigots.

I never made such an assertion. However, I would gladly defend an assertion that Evangelicalism embraces exclusivism, intolerance and bigotry.

I can't sign off on that either. I might if the term were "fundamentalism," but I know of exceptions to that rule too.

In my seminary days, my favorite professor identified himself as an "evangelical Methodist"; he was, in fact, the professor of Evangelism. He was also among the most liberal and humanistic professors in the University and among the most liberal and compassionate Christians I have ever met. "Evangelical" means, roughly, "committed to spreading the Gospel," and that doesn't necessarily imply exclusivism, intolerance and bigotry.

[flitzerbiest]

I doubt that this will change the attitudes of Evangelicals, but time will. Numerous polls show that the younger generations are overwhelmingly rejecting the bigoted (and often hypocritical) anti-gay message of Evangelicalism. This is just the latest social justice issue (e.g. slavery, feminism, etc) on which the conservative church is doggedly defending the wrong side.

I think it ought to be noted that the liberal churches have consistently been on the RIGHT side of all those issues; slavery, civil rights, feminism, and now gay/lesbian rights. For the record, so have modern Jews. Fundamentalist religion can be toxic and counterprogressive, and very often is; but that is not necessarily true of Christianity as a whole, nor of religion in general.

Well, yes and no. The Episcopal communion is dividing over the ordination of Gene Robinson, and ELCA churches are withdrawing from their synod over the same issue. I suppose what remains is the liberal church, but there is not exactly consensus within the liberal Christian movement.

Point taken, but I hope you took MY point as well; not all Christians are reactionaries and bigots.

I never made such an assertion. However, I would gladly defend an assertion that Evangelicalism embraces exclusivism, intolerance and bigotry.

I can't sign off on that either. I might if the term were "fundamentalism," but I know of exceptions to that rule too.

In my seminary days, my favorite professor identified himself as an "evangelical Methodist"; he was, in fact, the professor of Evangelism. He was also among the most liberal and humanistic professors in the University and among the most liberal and compassionate Christians I have ever met. "Evangelical" means, roughly, "committed to spreading the Gospel," and that doesn't necessarily imply exclusivism, intolerance and bigotry.

I'm afraid we're getting hung up on terms. Evangelicalism is a distinct Christian movement, roughly 60 years old, which began as a "third way" between mainline protestantism and fundamentalism. It initially was less rigid/literal than fundamentalism, but over the past 20 years, the two movements have essentially fused, with Evangelicalism absorbing the exclusivism and literalism of Fundamentalism, while adding an intense emotional fervor to the mix. Being an Evangelical is not the same as being one who evangelizes.

[cnorman18]

I doubt that this will change the attitudes of Evangelicals, but time will. Numerous polls show that the younger generations are overwhelmingly rejecting the bigoted (and often hypocritical) anti-gay message of Evangelicalism. This is just the latest social justice issue (e.g. slavery, feminism, etc) on which the conservative church is doggedly defending the wrong side.

I think it ought to be noted that the liberal churches have consistently been on the RIGHT side of all those issues; slavery, civil rights, feminism, and now gay/lesbian rights. For the record, so have modern Jews. Fundamentalist religion can be toxic and counterprogressive, and very often is; but that is not necessarily true of Christianity as a whole, nor of religion in general.

Well, yes and no. The Episcopal communion is dividing over the ordination of Gene Robinson, and ELCA churches are withdrawing from their synod over the same issue. I suppose what remains is the liberal church, but there is not exactly consensus within the liberal Christian movement.

Point taken, but I hope you took MY point as well; not all Christians are reactionaries and bigots.

I never made such an assertion. However, I would gladly defend an assertion that Evangelicalism embraces exclusivism, intolerance and bigotry.

I can't sign off on that either. I might if the term were "fundamentalism," but I know of exceptions to that rule too.

In my seminary days, my favorite professor identified himself as an "evangelical Methodist"; he was, in fact, the professor of Evangelism. He was also among the most liberal and humanistic professors in the University and among the most liberal and compassionate Christians I have ever met. "Evangelical" means, roughly, "committed to spreading the Gospel," and that doesn't necessarily imply exclusivism, intolerance and bigotry.

I'm afraid we're getting hung up on terms. Evangelicalism is a distinct Christian movement, roughly 60 years old, which began as a "third way" between mainline protestantism and fundamentalism. It initially was less rigid/literal than fundamentalism, but over the past 20 years, the two movements have essentially fused, with Evangelicalism absorbing the exclusivism and literalism of Fundamentalism, while adding an intense emotional fervor to the mix. Being an Evangelical is not the same as being one who evangelizes.

I'll defer to your opinion, then; my seminary experience was in the mid-70s, so that designation probably no longer applies as I understood it at that time. I haven't been in much direct contact with any segment of the Christian community for a decade or so, for obvious reasons.

[East of Eden]

I doubt that this will change the attitudes of Evangelicals, but time will. Numerous polls show that the younger generations are overwhelmingly rejecting the bigoted (and often hypocritical) anti-gay message of Evangelicalism. This is just the latest social justice issue (e.g. slavery, feminism, etc) on which the conservative church is doggedly defending the wrong side.

I think it ought to be noted that the liberal churches have consistently been on the RIGHT side of all those issues; slavery, civil rights, feminism, and now gay/lesbian rights. For the record, so have modern Jews. Fundamentalist religion can be toxic and counterprogressive, and very often is; but that is not necessarily true of Christianity as a whole, nor of religion in general.

Well, yes and no. The Episcopal communion is dividing over the ordination of Gene Robinson, and ELCA churches are withdrawing from their synod over the same issue. I suppose what remains is the liberal church, but there is not exactly consensus within the liberal Christian movement.

Point taken, but I hope you took MY point as well; not all Christians are reactionaries and bigots.

I never made such an assertion. However, I would gladly defend an assertion that Evangelicalism embraces exclusivism, intolerance and bigotry.

I can't sign off on that either. I might if the term were "fundamentalism," but I know of exceptions to that rule too.

In my seminary days, my favorite professor identified himself as an "evangelical Methodist"; he was, in fact, the professor of Evangelism. He was also among the most liberal and humanistic professors in the University and among the most liberal and compassionate Christians I have ever met. "Evangelical" means, roughly, "committed to spreading the Gospel," and that doesn't necessarily imply exclusivism, intolerance and bigotry.

I'm afraid we're getting hung up on terms. Evangelicalism is a distinct Christian movement, roughly 60 years old, which began as a "third way" between mainline protestantism and fundamentalism. It initially was less rigid/literal than fundamentalism, but over the past 20 years, the two movements have essentially fused, with Evangelicalism absorbing the exclusivism and literalism of Fundamentalism, while adding an intense emotional fervor to the mix. Being an Evangelical is not the same as being one who evangelizes.

I would call evangelical Christianity a 2,000 year old movement.

[flitzerbiest]

I would call evangelical Christianity a 2,000 year old movement.

This would be a semantic error along the same lines as one who states (as we commonly hear), "I believe in the fundamentals", but fails to recognize that Christian fundamentalism is a distinct and recognizable movement, the tenets of which the speaker may or may not accept. Evangelicalism is a recent Christian movement. Evangelism, as a Christian activity, is not.

[flitzerbiest]

I haven't been in much direct contact with any segment of the Christian community for a decade or so, for obvious reasons.

Not obvious to me, but then again I'm a noob.

[micatala]

I doubt that this will change the attitudes of Evangelicals, but time will. Numerous polls show that the younger generations are overwhelmingly rejecting the bigoted (and often hypocritical) anti-gay message of Evangelicalism. This is just the latest social justice issue (e.g. slavery, feminism, etc) on which the conservative church is doggedly defending the wrong side.

I think it ought to be noted that the liberal churches have consistently been on the RIGHT side of all those issues; slavery, civil rights, feminism, and now gay/lesbian rights. For the record, so have modern Jews. Fundamentalist religion can be toxic and counterprogressive, and very often is; but that is not necessarily true of Christianity as a whole, nor of religion in general.

Bible-believing Christians have been on the side of the anti-slavery and civil rights movement, as well as better treatment of women and gays. If you expect them to discard God's ideal of sex to be a matter between one man and woman in a marriage relationship, it won't happen.

The first sentence is true, but only part of the story. Bible-believing Christians were on both sides of all these issues. Arguably, most of those who were pro-slavery, anti-women voting, anti-civil rights, and anti-gay were or are bible-believing Christians.

On gay marriage, I don't expect those who are most opposed to gay marriage or gay sex on religious grounds to discard their views of what God's ideal is. However, I do think they have no grounds for expecting the rest of society to live by their views.

[WinePusher]

The first sentence is true, but only part of the story. Bible-believing Christians were on both sides of all these issues. Arguably, most of those who were pro-slavery, anti-women voting, anti-civil rights, and anti-gay were or are bible-believing Christians.

On gay marriage, I don't expect those who are most opposed to gay marriage or gay sex on religious grounds to discard their views of what God's ideal is. However, I do think they have no grounds for expecting the rest of society to live by their views.

So you're saying that if Christians don't agree with your position on these issues, then they are not on the right side of history? I'd say that's pretty much what liberal mentality is: if you don't agree with me on gay marriage, then you're on the wrong side of the issue.