Obama's Debt Commission Reports

[WinePusher]

Recommendations by the Obama Debt Commission are: http://money.cnn.com/2010/11/10/news/ec ... /index.htm

1) Reduce Domestic and Defense Spending by $200 Billion Dollars
2) Raise the retirement age to 68 by 2050
3) Lower income taxes and abolish the "Wealth Tax."
4) And more recommendations.

-Do you favor any of these recommendations?

[Guest]

No it is not. It goes to the Federal Reserve. America is now trillions of dollars in debt and it will continue to do so until that is covered or China collects on their debt-whichever comes first. There is NOT representation through Congress. Spending bills and raises, etc are attached to bills that dont even have anything to do with the bill in question. Even then, an earmark will rarely get to where it belongs initially becuz America is broke. Printing money to cover debts is NOT covering debts. Its creating a weak point in the economy which will have NO choice but to collapse.

Have anything to prove your claims here? Either you have never taken out a loan yourself or you have no idea even on a simplistic level on how the financial system works. Please explain how the house of representatives does not represent the people of the United States in Congress?

I have no idea where you came up with the "house" since I made no comment about them. But the reason I know is becuz i HAVE taken out a loan. When I take a loan I am required to pay it back with interest. The bank loans money they have, or at least they are supposed to. When the govt takes a loan it borrows from itself by printing up more money. If I did that I would be arrested.

I mentioned the house of representatives because you stated that there is no representation in congress, the house is part of congress.

I mean taxation without representation! I dont even know why you went down that road. Is not the subject taxation???

When our government takes out a loan it issues debt in the form of bonds which interested parties are then free to buy basing their purchase on the trustworthiness of the issuer to pay back the debt. When the US government buys its own debt that is known as retiring the debt because it has been paid off, just as a loan you take out is retired once you pay it off. The government is also required to pay back its loans with interest which is represented by the five percent of the budget which is used to service the debt. By issuing debt in the form of bonds the government gets around the problem of having to print more money and the problems that makes, other countries such as China and Japan which are running a profit buy our debt with the idea that we will pay interest on this debt for a long time to come.

Your answers look like they come out of a text book. Reality is just not that way.

You are talking like there IS money. There isn't. It goes to the Fed Reserve for debt repayment. Money does NOT go to any earmark becuz the money does not exist until the treasury prints it. And, yes, another point you bring up...it causes inflation. Which is why the cost of most things is increasing and increasing and increasing...with NO releif in sight.

You know another thing that has been increasing and increasing with no end in sight? Our wages, talk to your grandparents about how much money they made when they were your age. Sure a long time ago you could buy a cup of coffee for a nickel but during that same time a nickel was considered to be real money, heck I remember as a kid you could still buy candy for a penny and my first job paid around three dollars an hour for farm labor.

If inflation increases with the wages increases it is a moot point. There is no increase. Inflation is increasing faster than wages do. Lots of jobs lost after that and what we see now has no end in sight.

Are you trying to say that the IRS's overhead and administration fees are equal to or greater than the money it brings in?

Not trying to say..am saying. And the current regime has budgeted for an even bigger increase.

You made the claim, back it up or retract it. You claim the budget for the IRS exceeds the money it takes in, lets see your proof for this claim.

I'm still waiting for you to show the IRS budget exceeds the money it takes in.

I'm still wondering why I care, since I NEVER brought it up, about whether the IRS budget is excessive when the subject is the USA budget.

I said nothing about reducing the military. Thats was your idea.

If you aren't willing to drastically reduce the size of our military there is no way you are going to see the cost reductions in the government you are advocating.

A lib talking point. And then the elderly and then the babies. Yes I have heard. But you seem to think wages are the ONLY thing that the military takes.

Nepotism is not covered by the Constutition. A family should be able to inherit and even have a house passed on to the next generation. I am not sure why you dislike rich kids.

America is supposed to be a meritocracy, what did the children do to merit the incredible wealth they will inherit? According to the inheritence laws you will still be more than able to inherit a large estate but doesn't it make sense that now that they don't need it that the dead should pay back to the system which gave them the opportunity to achieve and in turn give those who would also achieve the opportunity to do so.

Well you can make a case for "meritocracy" as its no in the Constitution either. Its just another way to slap the rich.

You arent getting it. Yes, that would be the fair thing. But that is NOT the way it can be done.

Sure it is but it takes effort on your part, you can sue the tax preparer for causing your loss of income.

NO you cannot.

You are talking in circles. I stated that average joe does NOT understand the tax laws and instead have to pass the buck to a specialized preparer. If I KNEW I was getting too many breaks, then I would NOT have had to take it to a specialist and get them prepared, would I? Average joe citizen DOES NOT understand what is legal and what is not on tax laws. The supreme court ruling came about because a customer of H&R Block did as you suggested. They sued H&R Block for their error. The Supreme Court said they could NOT be sued.

You should have had a decent idea of the amount you would get back in your rebate when that amount was greatly surpassed as this sounds you should have been suspicious and taken it to another preparer.

1)there was no rebate. 2) I dont think you understand what a 1099 form is. And how a contractor has to file. I dont even know why you think everyone should "know". Is it becuz its supposed to be part of their chemical make-up to understand IRS tax codes. If you feel you are above average joe citizen and understand how you can get all of the tax breaks as a contractor then good for you. But since they change every year, I, like millions of others do not have time to keep up with them. ESPECIALLY as a self employed contractor. HOWEVER, drop this point. I should not have brought it up cuz now you think its personal. EVEN if this had NOT happened I would still believe the same way. AND, I am not rich, but neither do I think its fair that they be penalized for being rich.

Youre just too all over the board and addressing and asking questions about points you think I made

Ditto. Youre just too all over the board and addressing and asking questions about points you think I made

[Guest]

Nahh, I purposely REJECT your understanding. Its too simple. If you add some rainbows and unicorns to your explanation, then you come full circle. Naturally anyone who disagrees with a liberal "just does not understand." Moderates are the same as liberal, they just wear dark glasses. Ho hum. But thanks anyway for your advice

You apparently also purposefully reject the definition of a moderate. And there's nothing simple about my understanding. It comes from years of education in one of the highest ranked business schools in the nation as a student in the number one accounting program in the country as well as through studying hundreds of articles on the subject of economics and government spending on my own time. The reason I think you are someone who "just does not understand" is that you very CLEARLY have little to NO background in the subject matter you are trying to discuss and have presented neither evidence nor logical argument to persuade me otherwise. I don't care that you disagree with me. I care that you do so without giving any indication you actually know what you're talking about even in the slightest.

Give it up. DO NOT care. I dont care if you care. Your caring is irrelevant to me. Your care will not change my mind. I DISAGREE with you 100% and purposely do so. Not to spite you. Just because I think your understanding i DEAD wrong. But, when the economy collapses, just remember how "wrong" I was and how "right" you are. Congratulations on the education. Obama went to school. I think he is clueless about the economy. And, yes, moderates are just like liberals, they just wear glasses.

[ChaosBorders]

And, yes, moderates are just like liberals, they just wear glasses.

Since it is apparently your desire to intentionally remain ignorant, I guess I will have to go the recourse of just calling you on it as much as possible in accordance with forum rules until you stop spreading it. To that end:

Please provide evidence moderates are just like liberals or withdraw the claim. Also please provide evidence that they wear glasses or withdraw the claim.

You are talking like there IS money. There isn't. It goes to the Fed Reserve for debt repayment.

Please also provide evidence that there isn't money and that any there is all goes to the Fed Reserve for debt repayment or withdraw the claim.

[Wyvern]

I mentioned the house of representatives because you stated that there is no representation in congress, the house is part of congress.

I mean taxation without representation! I dont even know why you went down that road. Is not the subject taxation???

You seem to fail to recognize that the senators and representatives from your state are your representatives which means you have taxation with representation. All I'm doing is trying to drive home the point that you do have representation which would make your claim of being taxed without representation false.

Your answers look like they come out of a text book. Reality is just not that way.

Thank you I did that on purpose with the hope you would understand at least the very basics of how the system works and how different it is from your perception of how it works.

If inflation increases with the wages increases it is a moot point. There is no increase. Inflation is increasing faster than wages do. Lots of jobs lost after that and what we see now has no end in sight.

Only in the last decade have wages been growing slower than inflation. But you are correct inflation leads to wage inflation in an endless spiral until it limits competitiveness to such an extent that a reset becomes inevitable.

I'm still wondering why I care, since I NEVER brought it up, about whether the IRS budget is excessive when the subject is the USA budget.

Actually you did say after I questioned you about it that you believe the IRS budget is greater than the money it collects.

A lib talking point. And then the elderly and then the babies. Yes I have heard. But you seem to think wages are the ONLY thing that the military takes.

I was in the military, I know that wages in the military are a small part of their budget. The subject of this thread is how to reduce the debt and earmarks while easy to get rid of isn't nearly enough to do the job.

Well you can make a case for "meritocracy" as its no in the Constitution either. Its just another way to slap the rich.

Neither is inheritance covered in the constitution so I don't see your point.

Youre just too all over the board and addressing and asking questions about points you think I made

Ditto. Youre just too all over the board and addressing and asking questions about points you think I made

I never wrote this, I think you just quoted yourself and attributed it to me.

[Wyvern]

And, yes, moderates are just like liberals, they just wear glasses.

Since it is apparently your desire to intentionally remain ignorant, I guess I will have to go the recourse of just calling you on it as much as possible in accordance with forum rules until you stop spreading it. To that end:

Please provide evidence moderates are just like liberals or withdraw the claim. Also please provide evidence that they wear glasses or withdraw the claim.

I guess I must be a moderate then because I wear glasses.

[Guest]

Since it is apparently your desire to intentionally remain ignorant, I guess I will have to go the recourse of just calling you on it as much as possible in accordance with forum rules until you stop spreading it. To that end:

Please provide evidence moderates are just like liberals or withdraw the claim. Also please provide evidence that they wear glasses or withdraw the claim.

LOL too funny. Thanks for the laugh. I presume if I say "a rolling stone gathers no moss" then you would want evidence of stones that roll and moss....BTW "a rolling stone gathers no moss." .

[Guest]

And, yes, moderates are just like liberals, they just wear glasses.

Since it is apparently your desire to intentionally remain ignorant, I guess I will have to go the recourse of just calling you on it as much as possible in accordance with forum rules until you stop spreading it. To that end:

Please provide evidence moderates are just like liberals or withdraw the claim. Also please provide evidence that they wear glasses or withdraw the claim.

I guess I must be a moderate then because I wear glasses.

[Guest]

Please also provide evidence that there isn't money and that any there is all goes to the Fed Reserve for debt repayment or withdraw the claim.

Might read up on what the Federal Reserve is. Since 1913 its has been the central bank of the USA currently headed by Bernanke. There are 12 Fed Banks. Any grade school student can tell you that if you bring in less then you owe then you are in debt on a personal level. On a federal level it is the same, except to cover this debt--or at least make a payment on the interest they just print more money. US dollars are "Federal Reserve Notes." They have nothing backing them except the word of the Federal Reserve.

This information has changed but I dont have the latest figures. Everytime a stiulus packages was issued it was issued through nonexistant money. Everytime a natural disaster has occurred, money was given that does not exist. Simply an "IOU" is drawn from the Federal reserve. Since 2009, and the dozen or so stimulus packages that Obama issued we have increased the debt into the trillions and are that much closer to collapse.

* The Fed has over $11 billion in gold, which is a holdover from the days the government used to back U.S. Notes and Federal Reserve Notes with gold. The value reported here is based on a statutory valuation of $42 2/9 per fine troy ounce. As of March 2009, the market value of that gold is around $247.8 billion.
* The Fed holds more than $1.8 billion in coinage, not as a liability but as an asset. The Treasury Department is actually in charge of creating coins and U.S. Notes. The Fed then buys coinage from the Treasury by increasing the liability assigned to the Treasury's account.
* The Fed holds at least $534 billion of the national debt. The "securities held outright" value used to directly represent the Fed's share of the national debt, but after the creation of new facilities in the winter of 2007–2008, this number has been reduced and the difference is shown with values from some of the new facilities.
* The Fed has no assets from overnight repurchase agreements. Repurchase agreements are the primary asset of choice for the Fed in dealing in the open market. Repo assets are bought by creating 'depository institution' liabilities and directed to the bank the primary dealer uses when they sell into the open market.
* The more than $1 trillion in Federal Reserve Note liabilities represents nearly the total value of all dollar bills in existence; over $176 billion is held by the Fed (not in circulation); and the "net" figure of $863 billion represents the total face value of Federal Reserve Notes in circulation.
* The $916 billion in deposit liabilities of depository institutions shows that dollar bills are not the only source of government money. Banks can swap deposit liabilities of the Fed for Federal Reserve Notes back and forth as needed to match demand from customers, and the Fed can have the Bureau of Engraving and Printing create the paper bills as needed to match demand from banks for paper money. The amount of money printed has no relation to the growth of the monetary base .
* The $93.5 billion in Treasury liabilities shows that the Treasury Department does not use private banks but rather uses the Fed directly (the lone exception to this rule is Treasury Tax and Loan because government worries that pulling too much money out of the private banking system during tax time could be disruptive).
* The $1.6 billion foreign liability represents the amount of foreign central bank deposits with the Federal Reserve.
* The $9.7 billion in 'other liabilities and accrued dividends' represents partly the amount of money owed so far in the year to member banks for the 6% dividend on the 3% of their net capital they are required to contribute in exchange for nonvoting stock their regional Reserve Bank in order to become a member. Member banks are also subscribed for an additional 3% of their net capital, which can be called at the Federal Reserve's discretion. All nationally chartered banks must be members of a Federal Reserve Bank, and state-chartered banks have the choice to become members or not.
* Total capital represents the profit the Fed has earned, which comes mostly from assets they purchase with the deposit and note liabilities they create. Excess capital is then turned over to the Treasury Department and Congress to be included into the Federal Budget as "Miscellaneous Revenue".

In addition, the balance sheet also indicates which assets are held as collateral against Federal Reserve Notes. Federal Reserve Notes are authorized by Section 411 of Title 12 of the United States Code and are issued to the Federal Reserve Banks at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. The notes are then put into circulation by the Federal Reserve Banks. Once the notes are put into circulation, they become liabilities of the Federal Reserve Banks and obligations of the United States.

[Guest]

You both can have the last word on this. Clearly, if understanding but disagreeing with someones position is considered "ignorant" then this can have no good end. You can both now say you won. Thanks.

[Wyvern]

. Since 2009, and the dozen or so stimulus packages that Obama issued we have increased the debt into the trillions and are that much closer to collapse.

Where do you get your information? Or is it just that since you have no intention of providing evidence to prove your claims you think you can make any hyperbolic statement you want?