The Lake of Fire

[Listener]

Hello all

My first post

I admit I am terrified of going to the lake of fire as mentioned in Revelation. After a lot of research, I'm convinced that 'Hell' is not a fiery place of torment. It's from the Greek Gehenna, and that was the refuse tip just outside Jerusalem. What terrifies me is the Lake of Fire.

The following depicts a scene after the second resurrection at the great white throne of God, as depicted in Revelation, and I can't find any answer to them:

(Rev 14:9) And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

(Rev 14:10) he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

(Rev 14:11) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

The answer I hear the most, is that it's all symbolic in a very symbolic book (Revelation). But those verses don't come across as symbolic to me. There are worshippers, they will be tormented by fire, and they will have no rest day or night.

Personallly, it's driving me insane. These last 3 days I've done nothing but think about it all the time. I'm a believer with major doubts, I even had a vision as I was falling asleep where I watched myself, actually saw myself falling down into utter blackness.

Can anyone relate? Does anyone have anything that may help?

Thank you

[Listener]

I appreciate this is a forum where (and I could be wrong) there are more non-believers than believers, but I come here in the hope that you might be able t offer some insight into this dilemma of mine.

The best I've seen so far goes like this:

Revelation 14:11: “And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.�

Eternal punishment is extinction forever.

There is a strong sense of guilt that comes across, it’s not a literal burning but a weeping and gnashing of teeth. Some can already sense it now, before judgement.

They have no rest night or day for those who live for carnal things (it is a state of mind), Gods rest is to be spiritually minded.

So the tormenting night and day is speaking about being alive now in torment. Which makes sense, because God said He never wanted the Israelites to sacrifice their children in the fire of molech, and that He even thought it was abominable to do so. If God then burns people forever, that looks like double standards. And God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

If the bible doesn’t contradict itself, then we have to look for the context to resolve the issue. The main thrust here is that God does not want people to be burned, that it’s an abominable idea to Him. That He wants all to come to repentance, that He is the saviour of all men, especially those who believe.

If you consider that the bible also teaches that God is love, then the context points to God not sending his creation to burn forever in agony.

At least that is how I see it, but of course, I'm biased by my anxiety over the issue.

What do you think?

[Wood-Man]

I suppose you are looking for a Christian to interpret that stuff in a way that makes you feel better. Maybe someone out there can do that. However, I wonder whether you might have some other underlying psychological problem that needs professional help. I'd guess you are surrounded by fundamentalists who will not be of help to you. If you are really obsessing about this sort of thing, you need to see a mental health worker - preferably a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist.

[JehovahsWitness]

SYMBOLISM & REVELATION





Firstly there is no getting away from it, Revelation is a symbolic book. Obviously God, Jesus, the faithful, Satan the Devil, all the individuals pictured there in are real but this doesn't negate its symbolism. For example Jesus is pictured as a lamb, if that lamb was pictured (it isn't I'm just trying to illustrate) as being sheared are you going to look for the literal shears and the real literal cut wool because Jesus is real? No, the lamb is figurative of something real but not literally mutton; so the shears and the wool would also SYMBOLISE something trying, in figurative speech, to teach or convey some information ABOUT something (or someone) that is real.

THE LAKE OF FIRE


#QUESTION: What about the passages that speak about "the lake of fire"?

It should be noted that:

1) Hell is thrown INTO the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14). Obviously, then hell and the Lake of Fire are two separate things.

2) "Death" is thrown into the lake of Fire: Death is a condition, it doesn't burn and cannot be made to suffer.

3) Revelation itself tells us what the Lake of Fire means. It's the second death (Rev 20:14). The second death means no hope of a resurrection

TORMENTED

What is the meaning of Rev 14:9-11, which says, "... If anyone worships the wild beast ... he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur ... (Rev 14: 10)? It should be noted that the bible uses the "fire" almost exclusivelyas a symbol not of conscious torment but total annialation (destruction). The Greek word John wrote was (Basanisteos) and is related to th "basanistes". This is noun translated "torturer", "tormentor" or "JAILER". It is the same word (Basanistes) that is translated "Jailer" in Matthew 18:34 which speaks about a man thrown in jail, it reads:

"In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed." -- New International Version (1984)

"And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt" -- English Standard Version (2001)

"With that his master, provoked to wrath, handed him over to the jailers until he repaid all that he owed"- NWT

So the word doesn't exclusivey refer to torture or torment but can refer to being confined or kept or restricted from movement (denied freedom).



"TORMENTED" (scroll down)
http://www.jehovah.to/exe/general/hell.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/200304230916 ... l/hell.htm

Further reading
http://nephesh-chaiyah.blogspot.com/200 ... -fire.html



#QUESTIONS: How does "the smoke of their torment" ascends forever and ever"?

Keeping in mind that Revelation is a symbolic book, it should be noted that it is not the" torment" that is said to continue forever (nor the FIRE that is said to continue forever) but the "SMOKE" continues forever and ever. Where does the smoke come from? Revelation curiously says the smoke comes (not from the fire) but from the torment. Obviously torment doesn't literally produce smoke, so what does the "smoke from the torment" mean?

Smoke is evidence that a fire is or HAS BEEN burning. Anyone that remembers the pictures from Ground Zero, after the September 11th terrorist attacks will recognise that smoke continues to rise as a testimony of a fire long after the actual fire itself has been extinguished.

Usually of course, after some days or months the smoke ceases to rise, but in a symbolic way eternal smoke from the torment is an everlasting testimony of an act of Divine destruction.


Further reading
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020715/article_02.htm
http://www.facethefacts.co.za/?p=81


RELATED POSTS

Does anyone get out of HELL (sheol)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 02#p971002

Is FIRE used figuratively to represent the literal torture of humans after they die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p970945

Revelation 1:18, 6:8, Revelation 20:13, & 14 : What does the book of Revelation teach us about "HELL" ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p971239

REV14:9 /20:10 What is the "lake of fire"/"the second death"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 66#p337866

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GEHENNA , HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

[Listener]

I suppose you are looking for a Christian to interpret that stuff in a way that makes you feel better. Maybe someone out there can do that. However, I wonder whether you might have some other underlying psychological problem that needs professional help. I'd guess you are surrounded by fundamentalists who will not be of help to you. If you are really obsessing about this sort of thing, you need to see a mental health worker - preferably a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist.

Not sure if I have any underlying pschological problem, right now it's the problem right in front of my eyes that is the problem. But I understand it may be triggered by something else. I used to think it was an unhealthy fear/obsession with dying - but to be honest, a sleepless death sounds positively blissful compared to eternal agony in flames. So I doubt it's a fear of dying.

[Listener]

THE LAKE OF FIRE

It should be noted that:

1) Hell is thrown INTO the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14). Obviously, then hell and the Lake of Fire are two separate things.

Maybe it is, but I see Jesus as using gehenna to teach about the lake of fire, I.e. gehenna/hell is the same thing as the lake of fire. If they are the same thing, then it reinforces the idea that the lake of fire is not eternal torment because anything thrown into the example of gehenna was immediately consumed and destroyed.

2) "Death" is thrown into the lake of Fire: Death is a condition, it doesn't burn and cannot be made to suffer.

Good point, obvious symbolism

3) Revelation itself tells us what the Lake of Fire means. It's the second death (Rev 20:14). The second death means no hope of a resurrection.

And in death, we are told the dead know nothing. Another good point.

TORMENTED

What is the meaning of Rev 14:9-11, which says, "... If anyone worships the wild beast ... he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur ... (Rev 14: 10)?

Further it should be noted that the bible uses the "fire" almost exclusivelyas a symbol not of conscious torment but total annialation (destruction). The Greek word John wrote was "βασανιστεος" (Basanisteos) and is related to the word"βασανιστης" (Basanistes). This is noun translated "torturer", "tormentor" or "JAILER".

So the word doesn't exclusivey refer to torture or torment but can refer to being confined or kept or restricted from movement (denied freedom).

For me, this only serves to reinforce the idea that the torment in the lake of fire is eternal, because it describes a state of entrapment, of being held someplace, powerless to get free. Sure death is that same kind of entrapment, but so is the idea of eternal punishment. I.e you are trapped/restricted and powerless to set yourself free.

#QUESTIONS: How does "the smoke of their torment" ascends forever and ever"?

Keeping in mind that Revelation is a symbolic book, it should be noted that it is not the" torment" that is said to continue forever (nor the FIRE that is said to continue forever) but the "SMOKE" continues forever and ever. Where does the smoke come from? Revelation curiously says the smoke comes (not from the fire) but from the torment. Obviously torment doesn't literally produce smoke, so what does the "smoke from the torment" mean?

Usually of course, after some days or months the smoke ceases to rise, but in a symbolic way eternal smoke from the torment is an everlasting testimony of an act of Divine destruction.

Again, a good point.

Thank you very much

[mgb]

Origen says that the fire of hell is God and the pains of fire are a purification for evil spirits.

[Wood-Man]

I can understand why someone would choose to believe something untrue if it makes them feel better. This happens all the time - it's called denial. It's less clear why someone would believe something untrue that makes them miserable. There must be some other psychological gain in adopting such a belief. In that case, if the gain is enough, a person may accept the misery. Listener, what is the gain you are getting in believing Revelation?

Have you, in your life, ever seen these kind of supernatural events or apparitions? Doesn't the content of the Bible - especially Revelation - contrast starkly with your own experience? Sure, you can see all sorts of scary stuff at the movies. You've got to keep an awareness between reality and imaginative story-telling.

The book of Revelation was written on the Greek Isle of Patmos (I've been there) by someone called "John." Most scholars believe this is not the John who wrote the book, John, in the Bible. That is subject to some controversy, but there is a different level of familiarity with the Greek language between these two individuals. This was a terrible time in that region. There was a huge war going on between the Jews and Rome, which would culminate in the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. It's not surprising that someone living at that time would be in an apocalyptic frame of mind. This book was added to the New Testament at Emperor Augustine's Synods of Carthage (397 and 419 CE). These were contentious summits with lots of discord and disagreement. They voted on what to put in the New Testament. Even Christians don't claim that God ever came down and revealed which books should be in the New Testament like the ten commandments were revealed to Moses. It was just a bunch of people arguing about it and ending up with a majority decision. There were lots of books competing to be part of the Bible. They had to decide which ones to pick. I suppose this book just seemed like a good one to cap the whole collection and end on an exciting note.

BTW, you'd think Jesus might have mentioned some of this. Seems like a pretty big "PS" doesn't it? This is just crazy stuff that you should not be worrying about.

[mich]

Hello all

My first post

I admit I am terrified of going to the lake of fire as mentioned in Revelation. After a lot of research, I'm convinced that 'Hell' is not a fiery place of torment. It's from the Greek Gehenna, and that was the refuse tip just outside Jerusalem. What terrifies me is the Lake of Fire.

The following depicts a scene after the second resurrection at the great white throne of God, as depicted in Revelation, and I can't find any answer to them:

(Rev 14:9) And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

(Rev 14:10) he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

(Rev 14:11) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

The answer I hear the most, is that it's all symbolic in a very symbolic book (Revelation). But those verses don't come across as symbolic to me. There are worshippers, they will be tormented by fire, and they will have no rest day or night.

Personallly, it's driving me insane. These last 3 days I've done nothing but think about it all the time. I'm a believer with major doubts, I even had a vision as I was falling asleep where I watched myself, actually saw myself falling down into utter blackness.

Can anyone relate? Does anyone have anything that may help?

Thank you

Hello Listener and welcome to this forum.

I will not attempt to give you my personal belief as this would,in my opinion, simply bring forth more confusion. I will go through the several hypothesis instead.

First; God may not exist...death is simply anhiliation in such a case.
Some christians, such as the Jehova's Witness will say the same.
...so far, so good.
Reincarnation is another possibility...again, nothing to be feared.
Therefore, what you're afraid of centers on the definition of hell as being everlasting punishment. What if such a belief is true?
First, in order to believe in this hypothesis, you need to believe in a God of love.
Clearly, those who will enter hell, will do so because for them, heaven would be a hellish place to be due to the hatred residing within. Anything good, seeks unity;anything evil seeks destruction/separation.Evil tends to want to be secluded. Fear would not lead you to hell (if it exists), only hatred....the terms "gnawing of teeth" is a term implying hatred :"He teareth me in his wrath, who hateth me; he gnasheth upon me with his teeth; mine enemy sharpeneth his eyes upon me" (Job 16:9). Such hatred would be why souls are tormented.
Therefore, again, if you do not sense that such description of hatred exists in you, you have nothing to fear about. Catholics believe that certain sins will be purged...but that's about it.

Also....do you love this life you live? If you do love life, notice that you are capable of loving within an environment where , relative to Paradise, can be described as hell...you do not belong within such an environment....

Be not afraid.
Pope John Paul II

Andre

[Listener]

I can understand why someone would choose to believe something untrue if it makes them feel better. This happens all the time - it's called denial. It's less clear why someone would believe something untrue that makes them miserable. There must be some other psychological gain in adopting such a belief. In that case, if the gain is enough, a person may accept the misery. Listener, what is the gain you are getting in believing Revelation?

I don't want to believe in a lake of fire. I'd much rather not. But I'm not fully convinced that the place doesn't exist. Or more accurately, that the punishement given is not eternal. I believe the lake is real, but I don't want to believe the punishment is eternal. There's a good argument that the punishment is over when you are totally consumed.

Have you, in your life, ever seen these kind of supernatural events or apparitions? Doesn't the content of the Bible - especially Revelation - contrast starkly with your own experience? Sure, you can see all sorts of scary stuff at the movies. You've got to keep an awareness between reality and imaginative story-telling.

As for anything in Revelation manifesting itself in some way, I've encountered nothing. But I don't see how I could? This is all symbolic and representive of a time way off in the future.

The book of Revelation was written on the Greek Isle of Patmos (I've been there) by someone called "John." Most scholars believe this is not the John who wrote the book, John, in the Bible. That is subject to some controversy, but there is a different level of familiarity with the Greek language between these two individuals. This was a terrible time in that region. There was a huge war going on between the Jews and Rome, which would culminate in the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. It's not surprising that someone living at that time would be in an apocalyptic frame of mind. This book was added to the New Testament at Emperor Augustine's Synods of Carthage (397 and 419 CE). These were contentious summits with lots of discord and disagreement. They voted on what to put in the New Testament. Even Christians don't claim that God ever came down and revealed which books should be in the New Testament like the ten commandments were revealed to Moses. It was just a bunch of people arguing about it and ending up with a majority decision. There were lots of books competing to be part of the Bible. They had to decide which ones to pick. I suppose this book just seemed like a good one to cap the whole collection and end on an exciting note.

BTW, you'd think Jesus might have mentioned some of this. Seems like a pretty big "PS" doesn't it? This is just crazy stuff that you should not be worrying about.

I hear what you are saying Woodman, and I know it makes sense. You are right this book was only included later, after all others had been decided upon. And yes, you are very correct in your observation that it does look like a huger 'By the way...'. Why did Jesus not mention this at the time is a good point.

But I still cannot shake the nagging feeling 'What if it is all true?' The thought of burning in agony forever, or someone else sickens me with fear.

Thank you again for this ifno, it's an eye opener.