The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bankrupt

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TheLibertarian
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The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bankrupt

Post #1

Post by TheLibertarian »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101018/ap_ ... _cathedral
Crystal Cathedral, the megachurch birthplace of the televangelist show "Hour of Power," filed for bankruptcy Monday in Southern California after struggling to emerge from debt that exceeds $43 million.

In addition to a $36 million mortgage, the Orange County-based church owes $7.5 million to several hundred vendors for services ranging from advertising to the use of live animals in Easter and Christmas services.

The church had been negotiating a repayment plan with vendors, but several filed lawsuits seeking quicker payment, which prompted a coalition formed by creditors to fall apart.

"Tough times never last, every storm comes to an end. Right now, people need to hear that message more than ever," Sheila Schuller Coleman, the Cathedral's senior pastor and daughter of the founder, told reporters outside the worship hall decked with a soaring glass spire. "Everybody is hurting today. We are no exception," she said.

The church, founded in the mid-1950s by the Rev. Robert H. Schuller Sr., has already ordered major layoffs, cut the number of stations airing the "Hour of Power" and sold property to stay afloat.

In addition, the 10,000-member church canceled this year's "Glory of Easter" pageant, which attracts thousands of visitors and is a regional holiday staple.

The church was founded at a drive-in theater and attracted congregants with its sermons on the power of positive thinking. Its worship hall opened in 1970 and remains an architectural wonder and tourist destination.

Church leaders said the Crystal Cathedral's Sunday services and weekly-telecast "Hour of Power" will continue while in bankruptcy.

Other megachurches have also suffered from the downturn and reduced charitable giving.

Crystal Cathedral saw revenue drop roughly 30 percent in 2009 and simply couldn't slash expenses quickly enough to avoid accruing the debt, said Jim Penner, a church pastor and executive producer of the "Hour of Power."

Vendors owed money by the church formed a committee in April and agreed to a moratorium to negotiate a repayment plan with the Crystal Cathedral. But after several filed lawsuits and obtained writs of attachment to try to collect their cash, it was difficult to keep the group together, Penner said.

Now, the church is avoiding credit entirely and spends only the roughly $2 million it receives each month in donations and revenue, Penner said. The church still hopes to pay all of the vendors back in full, he said.

"What we're doing now is we're trying to walk what we preach, we're paying cash for things as we go," he said.
Here's what I don't understand. This palatial church has been in operation since 1970, and it opened with a thirty-six million dollar mortgage. Apparently the church makes two million dollars a month. That's twenty-four million dollars a year, or two-thirds of its mortgage. Assuming that it opened January 1st, 1970, it has made around a billion dollars since its inception (forty years = four hundred and eighty months, times two million dollars a month = nine hundred and sixty million dollars, assuming a relatively even intake). How absolutely terrible at financing does an organization have to be to make that kind of money and not be able to pay off its mortgage first thing? They've had forty years with which to do it!

God and Mammon. God and Mammon.

Here's your debate question:

With so many megachurches going broke through mismanagement and outright swindling, are they deleterious to the nation's economy?

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nygreenguy
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Re: The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bank

Post #31

Post by nygreenguy »

East of Eden wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
But you've already said that both Torquemada and Theresa were following God's commands. I think the counterargument is that Theresa's actions were plausibly consistent with the commands of a benevolent God and that Torquemada's were not.
Yes they both were following gods command as they saw it. Religion is very open to interpretation which is evidenced by the large number of sects not to mention that Torquemada and Theresa are separated by a number of centuries and the idea of what god is has changed dramatically over time. Only relatively recently has god been generally interpreted to be a loving and benevolent being and what that means in a religious sense has also changed over time. To Torquemada it very well may have been seen as being loving to save ones soul even if it costs a heretic their life.
According to Wikipedia, these were the reasons behind the Inquisition:

"Various motives have been proposed for the monarchs' decision to fund the Inquisition such as increasing political authority, weakening opposition, suppressing conversos, profiting from confiscation of the property of convicted heretics, reducing social tensions and protecting the kingdom from the danger of a fifth column."

This was interesting:

"It was still widely considered in Europe to be the most merciful judicial system in Europe at that time, as evidenced by records of people blaspheming in secular courts intentionally for them to be brought before the Inquisition for a more just and fair trial."
Clearly, in all these cases, it was the lust for power which drove these people to do such awful, awful things. Something tells me they used either religion or political ideology as an excuse on how to allow the people to accept it (combined with the fear of it happening to them if they choose to defy it).

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Wyvern
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Re: The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bank

Post #32

Post by Wyvern »

East of Eden wrote:
Wyvern wrote:
But you've already said that both Torquemada and Theresa were following God's commands. I think the counterargument is that Theresa's actions were plausibly consistent with the commands of a benevolent God and that Torquemada's were not.
Yes they both were following gods command as they saw it. Religion is very open to interpretation which is evidenced by the large number of sects not to mention that Torquemada and Theresa are separated by a number of centuries and the idea of what god is has changed dramatically over time. Only relatively recently has god been generally interpreted to be a loving and benevolent being and what that means in a religious sense has also changed over time. To Torquemada it very well may have been seen as being loving to save ones soul even if it costs a heretic their life.
"It was still widely considered in Europe to be the most merciful judicial system in Europe at that time, as evidenced by records of people blaspheming in secular courts intentionally for them to be brought before the Inquisition for a more just and fair trial."
Thank you for proving my point, when the inquisition was active as you noted many thought it was a fair and merciful body but I doubt very many people would call it that now.

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Wyvern
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Re: The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bank

Post #33

Post by Wyvern »

East of Eden wrote:
Wyvern wrote: Yes they both were following the commands of god in the way they saw fit based on what their jobs were. Mother Theresa went about saving peoples lives while Torquemada decided it was better to save their souls. You may not agree with how he went about doing it but all the same he was.
So Mother Teresea and Torquemada were the same, huh?
A wonderful illustration here of the late Wm. F. Buckley Jr's top classic liberal failure: the failure to discriminate.
Interesting you fail to see a difference between saving lives and taking them but accuse me of not being discriminating.
Jim Jones, Branch Davidians or the wide scale witch hunts in west africa the problem with religion is that noone can say whether any one sect is correct or not.
It can easily be shown how the above drastically departed from Christ's teaching. I notice you don't mention Islam, is your problem with Christianity, not religion?
I was simply following your lead, it was you that decided to compare communism to christianity why would I bring in another religion to further muddy the waters.
If Torquemada was acting against the teachings of Jesus were there any christian states criticizing him for his crimes at the time?
Yes, the Pope issued a bull to stop the Inquistion but was pressured into withdrawing it.
So your answer is no, at least with the communist version of this question you asked they had the excuse of there not being any other communist states at the time.
All it takes to commit large scale murder is to have a large population base and the technological means to commit those murders.
So why did Pol Pot kill one third of a small country? What technology did he use that Torquemada didn't have? Stalin starved many of his victims (Ukrainian famine), that's pretty low-tech. According to you the greatest mass murderers of history just happened to be Communists of the last 100 years. What a coincidence.
Pol Pot had automatic weapons and a larger population base than did Torquemada. Stalin had trains to transport the confiscated food away along with an industrial base to support a large army which enforced the famine. I would say paranoia and pure stupidity has caused the greatest mass murders, the famine that resulted from the great leap forward happened not because Mao was a communist but because he did not understand ecology.
Torquemada had neither while Stalin had both.
So Torquemada really wanted to kill millions but couldn't figure out how to do it?
I am simply illustrating the fact that Torquemada did not have the tools that twentieth century leaders did if you want to assign intent that is your business but I claim no knowledge as to what Torquemada wanted to do.
If you start with the assumption that Stalin is a typical communist leader of course your understanding is going to be skewed.
All communist leaders used violence and coercion, combined with a complete lack of basic human rights we take for granted. Stalin's murder total was large because he oversaw a large population base, as did Mao.
How is it you take all this time trying to tell me I am wrong but at the end you agree with me?

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East of Eden
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Re: The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bank

Post #34

Post by East of Eden »

Wyvern wrote:
How is it you take all this time trying to tell me I am wrong but at the end you agree with me?
I'm not agreeing with you, just responding to your asking me if I thought Stalin was a typical Communist leader.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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flitzerbiest
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Post #35

Post by flitzerbiest »

The bankruptcy of the Crystal Cathedral would seem to indicate that God has gotten out of the providence business.

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