Capitalism vs. Socialism/Marxism

[WinePusher]

I view Marxism as inherently toxic. It's victims last century far outnumber those of any other ideology. The Nazis and KKK demonized groups based on race, Marxism demonizes groups based on class. There's not much difference.

I disagree. I think you're basing this on the worst possible examples of communist dictatorships and ignoring the fact that marxist doctrine itself doesn't call for violence. It doesn't demonize people based on economic class, either.

Look up Michelle Bachelet. She's a recent former president of Chile (chosen democratically), a socialist, and she did a very good job. Chile's now in a much better socio-economic state, way ahead than most Latinamerican countries.

Questions:

1) Which economic system is more just to the poor, give reasons?

2) Which economic system would you prefer: Lassiez Faire Capitalism or Totalitarianist Marxism. no moderate positions please, and give reasons.

3) Which economic system is more beneficial to a society?

Let's try to avoid moderate positions that incorporate both economic systems in this thread.

[Kuan]

Id have to say that I hold a similar stance to that, although I dont know what the fair wage system is.

I'm not sure if it's a system actually, although I'd bet someone already thought of it. The basic idea is that if a company's doing great, they should pay their employees very well. For example, if the company's CEO is making 2 million a year, he can't pay his employees minimum wage. There should be a certain correlation between the biggest and the smallest salaries being paid by the company.

Like I said, I doubt it'd be wise to implement that in the USA right now. It probably would just make owners more prone to resort to chinese labor rather than american.

I like that idea, but your right. Companies will outsource to other countries. There should be a correlation but it also might have some serious complications arise.

On the other hand, one item that is proposed to get rid of is the tax breaks for companies that outsource to other countries.

That will make a big difference.

There are a lot of options that we have. Which one will work best?

[nygreenguy]

Id have to say that I hold a similar stance to that, although I dont know what the fair wage system is.

I'm not sure if it's a system actually, although I'd bet someone already thought of it. The basic idea is that if a company's doing great, they should pay their employees very well. For example, if the company's CEO is making 2 million a year, he can't pay his employees minimum wage. There should be a certain correlation between the biggest and the smallest salaries being paid by the company.

Like I said, I doubt it'd be wise to implement that in the USA right now. It probably would just make owners more prone to resort to chinese labor rather than american.

I like that idea, but your right. Companies will outsource to other countries. There should be a correlation but it also might have some serious complications arise.

On the other hand, one item that is proposed to get rid of is the tax breaks for companies that outsource to other countries.

That will make a big difference.

There are a lot of options that we have. Which one will work best?

Tarriff that stuff. It may piss off china et al, but who cares? It will save jobs here in the US. That is what made us an economic powerhouse, we made our OWN goods, and the unions made sure people got good wages.

People argue that it became impossible to do business in the us. Well, a great many companies were still making profits when they go oversea, they simply want more and want to escape the regulations that keep their products and employees safe.

[Lux]

I would also be in favor of tax breaks for companies that don't ship the jobs overseas. I'm not sure there is a tax break good enough to account for the difference in salaries, but it'd still be an incentive, and it could make a difference.

[Kuan]

What about the minimum wage, although it helps the worker, it also hurts the worker.

Ex. Sammy's Ice Cream Shop has 12$/hr to hire workers.
They hire Linda and Sam for 6$/hr.

The government passes a new law that raises minimum wage from 6 to 7$/hr. Now Sammy's has to fire one of there employees, even though they are both happy with 6$/hr.

Also raising it over and over will cause more companies an incentive to go over seas.

[Lux]

What about the minimum wage, although it helps the worker, it also hurts the worker.

Ex. Sammy's Ice Cream Shop has 12$/hr to hire workers.
They hire Linda and Sam for 6$/hr.

The government passes a new law that raises minimum wage from 6 to 7$/hr. Now Sammy's has to fire one of there employees, even though they are both happy with 6$/hr.

Also raising it over and over will cause more companies an incentive to go over seas.

I have no contention on what the minimum wage should be or when it should be raised. The point I was making earlier was that if a company is doing well enough that the CEO makes a million a year, perhaps that company shouldn't be allowed to pay their employees minimum wage. That's what I meant with "a more fair wage system".

[WinePusher]

If we were to compare American capitalism with European Socialism, I would be in favor of American Captialism.

Then europe by far.

Why? I think it's a well accepted fact that America, by far, offers more social mobility and freedoms then Europe does. I'd say that that is due largely to our adherence to Capitalist Principles

While many liberals tend to make a case that capitalism is inherently greedy and selfish, that hasn't appeared very often in America.

Seriosuly? Woah. There are entire books on the evils caused by corporate greed.

There are the individually rich people, and then there are corporations. Corporations are institutions that are prone to corruption just as government institutions are. You'll see that many rich people in America do good with their money, and that coporations do provide nice incentives and benefits to their workers.

Especially faith-based charities, as they not only give poor peoples the means they need to survive, but they also try to give them purpose and meaning through the faith they promote. Government "charities" lack the latter.

Many withold services until/unless people listen to their religious message. Secular charities give simply because its the right thing to do.

Never heard of this before, at least not within the Catholic Churches. Can you name a faith based charity that witholds services based on a religious test?

[WinePusher]

Life isnt fair, its survival of the fittest.

And that is the basis of capitalism. Survival of the fittest, and let the rest see what they can do for food.

And the basis for socialism would be government control, no economic freedom, no mobility, no nothing, yes? Btw, what would be wrong with the concept of survival of the fittest when the meaning and purpose and existence of humans is based on that concept?

[Lux]

Life isnt fair, its survival of the fittest.

And that is the basis of capitalism. Survival of the fittest, and let the rest see what they can do for food.

And the basis for socialism would be government control, no economic freedom, no mobility, no nothing, yes? Btw, what would be wrong with the concept of survival of the fittest when the meaning and purpose and existence of humans is based on that concept?

Wrong actually, but I don't feel like I should be defending or explaining socialism, since I'm not a socialist. There are multiple articles about socialism on the Internet if you're interested in reading about it.

You're right, I chose the wrong words on the "survival of the fittest" thing. I do contend that the fittest surviving is a desirable, albeit naturally cruel thing. However, I think that since we took the trouble to create societies, we could make them so that everyone has equal opportunities to show how fit they are. Capitalism is a very unfair system, we are all born with extremely varying numbers and quality of opportunities in life. From a humanitarian point of view, when I see a family struggling to get enough money to eat I don't think "Well, they're probably not fit enough to survive!", I think "This system is just not working out".

[DeBunkem]

Capitalism is supposed to be about competition. The US is based on monopolistic corporatism, which is actually a welfare state for the wealthy. If there is any competition, it is left for the poor and working class competing for low wage jobs that do not support families. Big business privatizes the profit and socializes the expenses, as in pollution and outsourcing. They are "too big to fail" and no "survival of the fittest" applies to the beneficiaries of US style Crony Capitalism.
It must have a ready supply of desperate labor to exploit, and are the main reason no progress is made in immigration reform. This ugly fact of calvinistic, US-style capitalism was the reason slavery was tolerated so long. Also, the ability to buy legislation, enhanced by a Right-Wing SCOTUS, is anti-democratic, and warned against by the founders.



“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that
unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of
my country. As a result of the war, corporations have
been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places
will follow, and the money power of the country will
endeavour to prolong its reign by working upon the
prejudices of the people until all wealth is
aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is
destroyed.� : Abraham Lincoln - 1865

[nygreenguy]

What about the minimum wage, although it helps the worker, it also hurts the worker.

Ex. Sammy's Ice Cream Shop has 12$/hr to hire workers.
They hire Linda and Sam for 6$/hr.

The government passes a new law that raises minimum wage from 6 to 7$/hr. Now Sammy's has to fire one of there employees, even though they are both happy with 6$/hr.

Also raising it over and over will cause more companies an incentive to go over seas.

You are saying he theoretically fire the employee. I can theoretically say the increased wages will lead to increased productivity and increased sales.

If you want to question the validity of the minimum wage, take a look back at history before it.

One book out there dismantles everything libertarianism stands for and thats "A Peoples History of the United States" it shows the struggles behind and the reasons why we have a 40 hour work week, minimum wage, regulation, etc...