Jews and True Christians worship exactly the same God

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McCulloch
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Jews and True Christians worship exactly the same God

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

JehovahsWitness wrote: True Christians (that hold to the beliefs and teaching of Jesus and the first century congregation) worship exactly the same God as the Jews. YHWH (Yaweh or in English "Jehovah").
Questions for debate:
  1. Did Jews and Jesus worship exactly the same God?
  2. Did Jews and the first century Christians worship exactly the same God?
  3. Did the first century congregation worship exactly the same God as most modern Christians?
  4. Do Jews and most modern Christians worship exactly the same God?
  5. [bonus question] Is the god of Islam the same God or a different one?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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The truth will make you free.
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Post #2

Post by Joshua Patrick »

1. Did Jews and Jesus worship exactly the same God?

Yes.
2. Did Jews and the first century Christians worship exactly the same God?
Yes, most of them were Religious/Ethnic Jews and believed in the God of Abraham, the God of our anscestors. We as religious Jews in the Catholic Church, believe that God as revealed more of his nature through his own Son, the Messiah.

The Didache:
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

Most of the early church were both Religious/Ethnic Jews. We keep the OT, which is also from God.
3. Did the first century congregation worship exactly the same God as most modern Christians?
Yes the Catholic Church does (Incl. The Orthodox Church).


Not to sure, what the Protestant's believe these days.
4. Do Jews and most modern Christians worship exactly the same God?
Catholics are Jews, the Church is the continuation of Israel. We worship the same God. The God of Abraham, we just profess to believe in the Messiah. While Judaism does not profess the believe in the Messiah.
5.[bonus question] Is the god of Islam the same God or a different one?
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day" (CCC 841).

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Re: Jews and True Christians worship exactly the same God

Post #3

Post by Murad »

McCulloch wrote: Questions for debate:
  1. Did Jews and Jesus worship exactly the same God?
Absolutely; the God of Israel; the God of Abraham.
McCulloch wrote: [*]Did Jews and the first century Christians worship exactly the same God?
I think early Christians did; early Christians used to believe that Jesus was only a 'divine agent' of God.
But as doctrines were created they deviated from the teachings of Judaism & Jesus.
McCulloch wrote: [*]Did the first century congregation worship exactly the same God as most modern Christians?
This is debatable; we can never know for sure on what the intentions or exact beliefs of the early Christians were regarding God.
McCulloch wrote: [*]Do Jews and most modern Christians worship exactly the same God?
I dont think Jews worship a demigod.....
McCulloch wrote: [*][bonus question] Is the god of Islam the same God or a different one? [/list]
Yep. We believe in the God of Abraham, God of Ishmail & the God of Isaac. The one true deity.
"Muslim" means to submit to the one true God.
Abraham was a muslim that only submitted to one God. He did not submit to Jesus or the "Holy Spirit".
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

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Post #4

Post by Joshua Patrick »

I think early Christians did; early Christians used to believe that Jesus was only a 'divine agent' of God.
But as doctrines were created they deviated from the teachings of Judaism & Jesus
No early Christians believed in Jesus as God, right from the beginning.
Your claim that we deviated from the teachings is lie.
This is debatable; we can never know for sure on what the intentions or exact beliefs of the early Christians were regarding God.
What the Apostle's taught. The belief of a one true God, the God of Abraham.
I dont think Jews worship a demigod.....
They worship Jesus, so do Muslims if they do not want to admit it or not.
Abraham was a muslim that only submitted to one God. He did not submit to Jesus or the "Holy Spirit".
He did. He just did not know it.

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Post #5

Post by Murad »

Joshua Patrick wrote: No early Christians believed in Jesus as God, right from the beginning.
Your claim that we deviated from the teachings is lie.
I am not making this out of thin air; i am quoting from Christian Scholars.
Wiki:
Most Christians identified Jesus as divine from a very early period, although holding a variety of competing views as to what exactly this implied
Source: Larry Hurtado, Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity, (Eerdmans, 2005), page 650

Please refrain from calling me a liar.
Joshua Patrick wrote: What the Apostle's taught. The belief of a one true God, the God of Abraham.
The God of Abraham is not Jesus. The Trinity is a mere concoction to maintain monotheism in Christendom.
Tell me; did Jesus preach a so called "Trinity"? Oh wait he didn't; so you base your belief on assumption.
Joshua Patrick wrote: They worship Jesus, so do Muslims if they do not want to admit it or not.
You telling me i worship Jesus is like me telling a Jew they worship Zeus.
Please don't be ridiculous; Jesus is not God; God cannot be tortured by his creation.
Joshua Patrick wrote: He did. He just did not know it.
That is an assumption; i think Abraham knew who his God was. & Im sure he would say blasphemy to your opinion that the Creator was tortured & mocked by the Creation.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

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Post #6

Post by Joshua Patrick »

I am not making this out of thin air; i am quoting from Christian Scholars.

The first Christians, like the Jews before them, were fiercely monotheistic, willing to die horrible martyrs’ deaths in the Coliseum—being slain by gladiators, devoured by wild animals, crucified, or tied to a stake and turned into human torches—rather than concede the existence of any other gods.

I'll quote EARLY Christians;

Ignatius of Antioch:
"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides:
"[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Tatian the Syrian:
"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

Melito of Sardis:
"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

Irenaeus:
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1).

Clement of Alexandria:
"The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

"Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1).

Tertullian:
"The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]).

"That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]).

Origen:
"Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).
Please refrain from calling me a liar.
It is a lie, a blatant lie. Christians have always believed Christ as the Son of God.

The God of Abraham is not Jesus. The Trinity is a mere concoction to maintain monotheism in Christendom.
Tell me; did Jesus preach a so called "Trinity"? Oh wait he didn't; so you base your belief on assumption.
Jesus, is the God of Abraham. The Trinity is the nature of God, this is 100% infallible.

Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

The Didache:
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr:
"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch:
"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).


Irenaeus:
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

How would Muhammad know what Jesus preached?

The Apostle's knew because they walked with the Blessed Lord, and wrote it down. For future generations, aswell as Apostolic Succession.
You telling me i worship Jesus is like me telling a Jew they worship Zeus.
Please don't be ridiculous; Jesus is not God; God cannot be tortured by his creation.
No it's completely different, Judaism&Islam both worship Jesus, even if you do not want to accept him, you worship him. Only the Catholic Churc, knows the full nature of the divine God.

God, sent forth his Son, Christ Jesus to die for us. Christ was the second part of the blessed Trinity. He died out of love, as he states in Holy Scripture;

"And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John:10:16-19)
That is an assumption; i think Abraham knew who his God was. & Im sure he would say blasphemy to your opinion that the Creator was tortured & mocked by the Creation.
You do worship the God of Abraham, therefore makes you worship Christ even if you do not understand, Christ was God.
Im sure he would say blasphemy to your opinion that the Creator was tortured & mocked by the Creation.
No, Father Abraham probably be in agreement here.

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Post #7

Post by Murad »

Joshua Patrick wrote: The first Christians, like the Jews before them, were fiercely monotheistic, willing to die horrible martyrs’ deaths in the Coliseum—being slain by gladiators, devoured by wild animals, crucified, or tied to a stake and turned into human torches—rather than concede the existence of any other gods.
They had a very different ideology. Think back when the trinity wasn't created.
How did the Christians maintain their monotheistic status?

Joshua Patrick wrote: It is a lie, a blatant lie. Christians have always believed Christ as the Son of God.
Yep "Son of God"; not "God the Son"
What does the Jewish faith teach about being a "Son of God"?

Joshua Patrick wrote: Jesus, is the God of Abraham. The Trinity is the nature of God, this is 100% infallible.

Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).
That arguement is very, very illogical.
If 3 people were sitting together do they automatically & "mystically" become one?
Can you prove that Jesus preached the Trinity? Yes or No; dont try to twist the truth just give me a direct answer.
Joshua Patrick wrote: How would Muhammad know what Jesus preached?
That is a seperate topic; divine revalation from angel Gabriel.
Joshua Patrick wrote: The Apostle's knew because they walked with the Blessed Lord, and wrote it down. For future generations, aswell as Apostolic Succession.
And yet i dont see the word "Trinity" or the word "God the Son" anywhere in the Bible.
Joshua Patrick wrote: No it's completely different, Judaism&Islam both worship Jesus, even if you do not want to accept him, you worship him. Only the Catholic Churc, knows the full nature of the divine God.
Nope we don't, do you intend to Justify your claim? You worship Krishna & Thor.... Oh wait i cant justify it can i?
If you actually picked up & read the Quran(rather than quoting from anti-islamic websites); you would see it is strictly forbidden to worship Jesus.
We see Jesus a great prophet; the same way we see all the other prophets.

Joshua Patrick wrote: God, sent forth his Son, Christ Jesus to die for us. Christ was the second part of the blessed Trinity. He died out of love, as he states in Holy Scripture;
The Trinity is a man made doctrine... Ofcourse i challenge you to correct me if im wrong.
And the God of the OT does not want sacrifice; he wants mercy...... Please talk to a Jewish Rabbi.

Joshua Patrick wrote: You do worship the God of Abraham, therefore makes you worship Christ even if you do not understand, Christ was God.
I wont bother replying; obviously ignorance is evident in your posts. Ofcourse, you know better than Muslims & Jews on what they believe in... /Sarcasm
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

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Why Jesus is NOT God
---

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Post #8

Post by Joshua Patrick »

They had a very different ideology. Think back when the trinity wasn't created.
How did the Christians maintain their monotheistic status?
Love it, how you cut out the early Christian quotes I provided alonside it.
Yep "Son of God"; not "God the Son"
What does the Jewish faith teach about being a "Son of God"?
Then it's God the son, you knew fully well what I mean.

That arguement is very, very illogical.
If 3 people were sitting together do they automatically & "mystically" become one?
Can you prove that Jesus preached the Trinity? Yes or No; dont try to twist the truth just give me a direct answer.
The Trinity is something we can understand, it is something God revealed.

If somebody wanted to corrupt God's teachings he didn't have to make it so complicated.
That is a seperate topic; divine revalation from angel Gabriel.
LOL!
And yet i dont see the word "Trinity" or the word "God the Son" anywhere in the Bible
Peter professed him to be the Son of God, not in the way Christians & Jews are, but in a way that his devine.

Trinity is a word created by the Catholic Church to define the teaching of Father,Son,Holy Spirit.

Nope we don't, do you intend to Justify your claim? You worship Krishna & Thor.... Oh wait i cant justify it can i?
You want me to justify it, I thought you knew Christianity?
As Christians we believe, God is ONE, but in three natures. Father,Son, Holy Spirit, who is the God of Abraham. By worshipping God of Abraham, you worship Jesus. Muslims do not accept this, but to Christians you worship Jesus.
If you actually picked up & read the Quran(rather than quoting from anti-islamic websites); you would see it is strictly forbidden to worship Jesus.
What anti-islamic sites have I used in this discussion?

You claimed, Christianity believed in something else in beginning, I proved you wrong thats all as happened.

The Trinity is a man made doctrine... Ofcourse i challenge you to correct me if im wrong.
And the God of the OT does not want sacrifice; he wants mercy...... Please talk to a Jewish Rabbi.
Pretty funny coming from a Muslim, man made doctrines and all that. You know that so called prophet, who spang from Pagan origin, slept with a 9 year old little girl, we call him Muhammed.

The Trinity, is not a man-made doctrine, it is fount in the bible. Something Muslims are ment to believe in according to some of your other posts. Yet you claim it became corrupt, when you cant provide no evidence.
Why would I want to talk to a Jewish Rabbi?
The House of David, the continuation of Israel lies within the Catholic Church. I'll rather ask one of our 500,000 priests.
I wont bother replying; obviously ignorance is evident in your posts. Ofcourse, you know better than Muslims & Jews on what they believe in... /Sarcasm
It's you who bypasses the questions, you stated;
McCulloch wrote:

Did Jews and the first century Christians worship exactly the same God?


I think early Christians did; early Christians used to believe that Jesus was only a 'divine agent' of God.
But as doctrines were created they deviated from the teachings of Judaism & Jesus.
When I disproved your claim,by telling you early Christians worshipped Jesus as God. You said;

I am not making this out of thin air; i am quoting from Christian Scholars.
Wiki:
Quote:

Most Christians identified Jesus as divine from a very early period, although holding a variety of competing views as to what exactly this implied

Source: Larry Hurtado, Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity, (Eerdmans, 2005), page 650

Please refrain from calling me a liar.


So I quoted Early Christians of the Church, from Ignatius of Antioch,Aristides,Tatian the Syrian,Irenaeus,Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian,Origen

Who were Early Christians, you BYPASSED this evidence completely and pointed to the other part of my post;
Joshua Patrick wrote:

The first Christians, like the Jews before them, were fiercely monotheistic, willing to die horrible martyrs’ deaths in the Coliseum—being slain by gladiators, devoured by wild animals, crucified, or tied to a stake and turned into human torches—rather than concede the existence of any other gods.

They had a very different ideology. Think back when the trinity wasn't created.
How did the Christians maintain their monotheistic status?
So who really you is "obviously ignorance is evident in your posts." - When disproven you carried on ignoring the Christian of the early church.



[/b]

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Post #9

Post by Murad »

Joshua Patrick wrote: Love it, how you cut out the early Christian quotes I provided alonside it.
They are mere statements by man; i am asking you.
How would the early Christians Justify being monotheistic when the Trinity did not exist?

Joshua Patrick wrote: Then it's God the son, you knew fully well what I mean.
Is this the bit where you quote from the Bible saying "God the Son"? Or wait.. does the Bible even contain that phrase?
Joshua Patrick wrote: The Trinity is something we can understand, it is something God revealed.
God did not reveal the Trinity. I ask you again.... Please quote the word "Trinity" in the Bible.
Joshua Patrick wrote: If somebody wanted to corrupt God's teachings he didn't have to make it so complicated.
The Trinity is complicated enough; mathematically its impossible: 1+1+1 does not equal 1. Also 0.33 + 0.33 + 0.33 does not equal 1.
I know there are various analogy's; what is your favourite analogy?
Joshua Patrick wrote:
That is a seperate topic; divine revalation from angel Gabriel.
LOL!
Whats so funny? Are you a child that finds everything amusing? I havn't said a joke.

Joshua Patrick wrote: Peter professed him to be the Son of God, not in the way Christians & Jews are, but in a way that his devine.
Please show me Biblical evidence to justify these claims.
Joshua Patrick wrote: Trinity is a word created by the Catholic Church to define the teaching of Father,Son,Holy Spirit.
Thank you for making my job easier. The concept of "Trinity" is a man made doctrine.
Joshua Patrick wrote: You want me to justify it, I thought you knew Christianity?
Wow you have totally evaded my question, this isnt about Christianity, this is about Islam and Judaism... Please justify using our scripture to show that we believe in Jesus as God.
If you cannot do this dont make ridiculous claims.
Joshua Patrick wrote: As Christians we believe, God is ONE, but in three natures. Father,Son, Holy Spirit, who is the God of Abraham. By worshipping God of Abraham, you worship Jesus. Muslims do not accept this, but to Christians you worship Jesus.
Yes we dont accept man made doctrines. If i wasn't muslim i would defintely be Jewish.

Joshua Patrick wrote: Pretty funny coming from a Muslim, man made doctrines and all that. You know that so called prophet, who spang from Pagan origin, slept with a 9 year old little girl, we call him Muhammed.
Yay i knew this was comming. Very typical of Christians who cannot justify their pagan trinitarian beliefs and thus automatically attack other beliefs.
If you want to play the role of apologetic, you have to give me answers, not insults.

Joshua Patrick wrote: Why would I want to talk to a Jewish Rabbi?
The House of David, the continuation of Israel lies within the Catholic Church. I'll rather ask one of our 500,000 priests.
Rabbi's have a better knowledge of Judaism than any Christian or Muslim. Just ask a Rabbi on what they believe in
Joshua Patrick wrote: It's you who bypasses the questions, you stated;
McCulloch wrote:

Did Jews and the first century Christians worship exactly the same God?


I think early Christians did; early Christians used to believe that Jesus was only a 'divine agent' of God.
But as doctrines were created they deviated from the teachings of Judaism & Jesus.
When I disproved your claim,by telling you early Christians worshipped Jesus as God. You said;

I am not making this out of thin air; i am quoting from Christian Scholars.
Wiki:
Quote:

Most Christians identified Jesus as divine from a very early period, although holding a variety of competing views as to what exactly this implied

Source: Larry Hurtado, Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity, (Eerdmans, 2005), page 650

Please refrain from calling me a liar.


So I quoted Early Christians of the Church, from Ignatius of Antioch,Aristides,Tatian the Syrian,Irenaeus,Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian,Origen

Who were Early Christians, you BYPASSED this evidence completely and pointed to the other part of my post;
I didn't bypass them, i asked you a question regarding them & i will ask again.
How did Christians maintain their monotheistic status when the doctrine of Trinity wasn't created?
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

cnorman18

Re: Jews and True Christians worship exactly the same God

Post #10

Post by cnorman18 »

McCulloch wrote:
Questions for debate:

Did Jews and Jesus worship exactly the same God?
It's my understanding that Jesus was himself a Jew; therefore I would suppose the answer would be, Yes.

If Jesus did in fact believe himself to be God Incarnate, the question might be more problematic; but I don't know that to be true. The actual teachings of Jesus might not be recoverable at this late date. I don't regard the New Testament as necessarily historically accurate.

Before we go any farther, I also don't think that the doctrines of any particular church or organization must be accepted without question as if there were some ultimate authority that is infallibly correct beyond doubt. I don't think that's true of the Bible itself, and I certainly don't think it true of any earthly institution. Those who wish to hold such an opinion are entitled to do so, but it's more than a little silly to demand or expect that others do so for ANY reason.

Did Jews and the first century Christians worship exactly the same God?
I don't know, and I doubt that that information is recoverable at this late date, either.

Did the first century congregation worship exactly the same God as most modern Christians?
Ditto.

Do Jews and most modern Christians worship exactly the same God?
I can't speak for Christians. I think the answer is "probably," but our respective understandings of our relationship to that God are not at all the same, in my opinion.

[bonus question] Is the god of Islam the same God or a different one?
I don't claim to know enough about Islam to answer that question, and I don't know that I'd be willing to say even if I did. I can't speak for Muslims, either.

All this is complicated by the fact that I don't claim to know "what God" I worship myself, as far as His nature and attributes are concerned.

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