Is the bible really your moral compass?

[Dr.Physics]

this is not going to be the typical argument about the bible's moral problems, where i point out that god endorses slavery and stoning people ect.

instead, i want to ask a different, less discussed and in my opinion more important issue...

everyone i ever talk to in real life that finds out im an atheist asks me "well if you are an atheist, where do you get your morals?"
i could tell them that a simple principle, such as humanistic principles, allow me to be moral, but instead what i have began to do is ask them where they get THEIR morals.

Most bible followers think that they are moral because they know what is good and wrong from the bible. yet in the bible, only a very miniscule amount of common sense morality is discussed... let me discuss an example of where i think the bible has a hole in revealing morality:

**what do we do about life more intelligent than us?

1) if there are aliens that have a greater capacity to feel empathy, love, pain and joy than we do, how are we to treat them? can we cut them open and display their carcasses in museums? how are they to treat us? can they treat us like we treat dogs and cattle because we are lower intelligence-wise? remember, the morality in the bible is universal and eternal, unchanging. this means that it applies everywhere in the universe, (and even in heaven). does the bible address this issue? even by inference? remember, you cant speculate what god might think, this is just a question of what the bible reveals, because this is a thread addressing the ability of the bible to be the moral compass.

2) or what if in 1000000 years from now, or longer if need be, we coexist with another species that passes our intelligence and our ability to feel empathy, love, pain and joy? are we still allowed to cut open and eat this animal? can we still skin it and wear its fur? now that this species is intelligent enough to know right from wrong if it was revealed to them, are they now required to follow moral commands from god? or do you claim that there will never be more intelligent beings than us? what does the bible have to say about other beings and morality? are they off the hook, so to speak?

------------------------------------------------------------

there are probably dozens of other examples of issues that god doesnt address in the bible, that WE are left to figure out on our own what is right and wrong.

the importance of realizing this, is that if there are moral issues that can be resolved without the bible, where are you getting that moral answer from? what is deciding whether an action is good or evil, if you aren't using the bible? i claim that it is our inherent morality which most of us have instinctively, and that the bible is not actually giving you your moral compass, but rather you are imposing your moral compass on the bible.. what do you think? is the bible THE moral compass?

***ps: if you already agree with me, please think of other examples of where the bible can not/ does not give an answer or solution to a moral question. thanks!@

[JehovahsWitness]

what does the bible have to say about other beings and morality?

The bible does not address science fictional hypothesis based on the random thoughts of individual star gazers. It does however address principles that can be applied to most real life situations humans have and do encounter. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is not mentioned in the bible, neither does it attempt to comment of said monsters moral responsibilities. This domaine has been left to bored teenagers and fictional writers.

[McCulloch]

The classic set of moral problems involving runaway railway trains, switches, hapless bystanders, a fat person and a bridge is interesting. Not so much what people answer but that there is no significant difference in the set of answers from those who claim to believe in various gods and those who do not.

Evidently, theism or its lack does not inform our ethical position.

[Zzyzx]

.

. . . that there is no significant difference in the set of answers from those who claim to believe in various gods and those who do not.

Evidently, theism or its lack does not inform our ethical position.

I agree -- and note that not only are answers by Theists not significantly different from those of Non-Theists, but ACTIONS are not significantly different.

This seems to be a serious failing of religion -- which is touted as a moral code and a guide to proper behavior ("love one another", etc), but which fails to significantly produce a positive effect on behavior.

With and without worshiping "gods" behavior is similar -- so where is the positive effect? We see a microcosm in these threads when professing religionists are often angry, hostile, belligerent (and frequently banned).

[Misty]

I don't think much of the Bible is particularly moral.

[sleepyhead]

Hello,

>>>everyone i ever talk to in real life that finds out im an atheist asks me "well if you are an atheist, where do you get your morals?" <<<

I'm rather hesitant to believe this but since I'm not an athiest I don't know for sure. Do other athiests experience this? I know every once in a while someone will yell out their car window asking me where I learned to drive but this was more likely after witnessing my driving skills rather than an effort to promote any particular driving teacher.

[Dr.Physics]

what does the bible have to say about other beings and morality?

The bible does not address science fictional hypothesis based on the random thoughts of individual star gazers. It does however address principles that can be applied to most real life situations humans have and do encounter. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is not mentioned in the bible, neither does it attempt to comment of said monsters moral responsibilities. This domaine has been left to bored teenagers and fictional writers.

1) are you implying i am a bored teenager?? well, im not bored... i have college, work, and of course halo reach cmon!

2) okay, well if you dont believe there will EVER be aliens or other life on earth that develops "human like" intelligence, i will have to ask the same question from a different angle:

the bible shows god commanding us to do immoral, cruel things:

"Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ."(Ephesians 6:5)

"Slaves, obey your human masters in everything; don't work only while being watched, in order to please men, but work wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord." (Colassians 3:22)

"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back ." (Titus 2:9)

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. " (1 Peter 2:18)

Slavery was one of the most offensive institutions to ever befall humanity. Sadly, the scriptures condoned it, and, as you can see from the above verses, demanded that slaves obey their masters... this is not a good moral teaching, but IT SAYS IT IS IN THE BIBLE! so what do you use to tell that this is NOT moral? you cant say you use the bible to tell, because its from the bible, so rather you are using SOME OTHER means of determining right from wrong, which lets you know what parts of the bible are right and wrong.

slavery is very non-fictional, so you should have no problem here, right? if slavery is condoned by the bible, why do you find it to be immoral? what do you think gives you this idea that it is immoral?

[Zzyzx]

.

if slavery is condoned by the bible, why do you find it to be immoral? what do you think gives you this idea that it is immoral?

Excellent point, Dr.P. You display intelligence as well as wisdom -- irrespective of age.

Some who post here seem to denigrate young people, perhaps because they, themselves, were immature and unwise at similar ages. From the other end of the spectrum (age 70), I appreciate sharp young people, perhaps reflecting my years as a college / university professor in contact with many exceptional people in their late teens and early twenties.

Many appear to be threatened when people younger than themselves are "ahead" of them intellectually. That is diametrically opposed to a wise teacher who EXPECTS his students to surpass his own knowledge and understanding.

The questions you ask above are searching questions that are not easily (or usually convincingly) answered by Biblicists. They must denounce statements in their own source of "morals" while attempting to somehow continue to maintain it as a valuable source. Cognitive dissonance may apply.

[cnorman18]

Posted this over on the Science & Religion subforum, but the discussion seems to be going on here.

this is not going to be the typical argument about the bible's moral problems, where i point out that god endorses slavery and stoning people ect.

instead, i want to ask a different, less discussed and in my opinion more important issue...

everyone i ever talk to in real life that finds out im an atheist asks me "well if you are an atheist, where do you get your morals?"
i could tell them that a simple principle, such as humanistic principles, allow me to be moral, but instead what i have began to do is ask them where they get THEIR morals.

Most bible followers think that they are moral because they know what is good and wrong from the bible. yet in the bible, only a very miniscule amount of common sense morality is discussed...

That's quite true, and though I can't speak for Christians, in the Jewish religion the specifics of morality are found in the teachings and in the tradition, which are separate from Scripture. That is true in Christianity, too, I think, though only the Catholics are upfront about it: it is acknowledged in that denomination that there are TWO authorities -- the Bible and the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church.

let me discuss an example of where i think the bible has a hole in revealing morality:

**what do we do about life more intelligent than us?

1) if there are aliens that have a greater capacity to feel empathy, love, pain and joy than we do, how are we to treat them? can we cut them open and display their carcasses in museums? how are they to treat us? can they treat us like we treat dogs and cattle because we are lower intelligence-wise? remember, the morality in the bible is universal and eternal, unchanging. this means that it applies everywhere in the universe, (and even in heaven). does the bible address this issue? even by inference? remember, you cant speculate what god might think, this is just a question of what the bible reveals, because this is a thread addressing the ability of the bible to be the moral compass.

2) or what if in 1000000 years from now, or longer if need be, we coexist with another species that passes our intelligence and our ability to feel empathy, love, pain and joy? are we still allowed to cut open and eat this animal? can we still skin it and wear its fur? now that this species is intelligent enough to know right from wrong if it was revealed to them, are they now required to follow moral commands from god? or do you claim that there will never be more intelligent beings than us? what does the bible have to say about other beings and morality? are they off the hook, so to speak?

I would think that that is yet another issue that we shall have to grapple with when it arises, just as we have with issues like brain death, organ transplants, modern communications and democracy, none of which existed in Biblical times.

there are probably dozens of other examples of issues that god doesnt address in the bible, that WE are left to figure out on our own what is right and wrong.

the importance of realizing this, is that if there are moral issues that can be resolved without the bible, where are you getting that moral answer from? what is deciding whether an action is good or evil, if you aren't using the bible? i claim that it is our inherent morality which most of us have instinctively, and that the bible is not actually giving you your moral compass, but rather you are imposing your moral compass on the bible.. what do you think? is the bible THE moral compass?

***ps: if you already agree with me, please think of other examples of where the bible can not/ does not give an answer or solution to a moral question. thanks!

I think that we are obligated to use our own rational minds and moral senses, by way of engaging in intelligent discussion and debate among ourselves -- which ought to take into account the moral standards we share with the community and time in which we live; and those would, and should, include the religious traditions which are part of that reality. Those traditions don't have a veto, but they should have a voice. They are part of the structure and history of human thought too.

[Dr.Physics]

.

if slavery is condoned by the bible, why do you find it to be immoral? what do you think gives you this idea that it is immoral?

Excellent point, Dr.P. You display intelligence as well as wisdom -- irrespective of age.

Some who post here seem to denigrate young people, perhaps because they, themselves, were immature and unwise at similar ages. From the other end of the spectrum (age 70), I appreciate sharp young people, perhaps reflecting my years as a college / university professor in contact with many exceptional people in their late teens and early twenties.

Many appear to be threatened when people younger than themselves are "ahead" of them intellectually. That is diametrically opposed to a wise teacher who EXPECTS his students to surpass his own knowledge and understanding.

The questions you ask above are searching questions that are not easily (or usually convincingly) answered by Biblicists. They must denounce statements in their own source of "morals" while attempting to somehow continue to maintain it as a valuable source. Cognitive dissonance may apply.

thankyou very, very much. i also think it is nice to see intelligent older people who are non-religious and open about it, because most younger people picture old people as conservative and traditional (not that i do). thanks again