Sufferening

[Ravenstorm]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

[fredonly]

lets say for arguements sake that a god did exist.Wouldn't it be helpful if god simply just rid the world of say....child starvation.All at once.Instead of humans slowly trying to alliviate the problem which they would never stop all at once.

Yes, it would be simple if it is possible.

However, God has given us this earth to live in and be responsible for. With your logic, aren't WE being lazy & neglectful? Wanting someone else to come in and fix the problem, so we don't have to get our hands dirty?

What would we then do? Sit back, get fat and marvel at how easy God has made life for us? All we have to do is sit around and watch Him fix everything - yeah!

So God lets the children die in order to teach us a lesson! What a Guy!

And I suppose he's also waiting for us to learn how to prevent earthquakes, tsunamis, etc.

[justifyothers]

lets say for arguements sake that a god did exist.Wouldn't it be helpful if god simply just rid the world of say....child starvation.All at once.Instead of humans slowly trying to alliviate the problem which they would never stop all at once.

Yes, it would be simple if it is possible.

However, God has given us this earth to live in and be responsible for. With your logic, aren't WE being lazy & neglectful? Wanting someone else to come in and fix the problem, so we don't have to get our hands dirty?

What would we then do? Sit back, get fat and marvel at how easy God has made life for us? All we have to do is sit around and watch Him fix everything - yeah!

So God lets the children die in order to teach us a lesson! What a Guy!

And I suppose he's also waiting for us to learn how to prevent earthquakes, tsunamis, etc.

No, fredonly. You must re-read my post. My point was that it is OUR responsibility. We wanted freedom....we got it. So, what are we doing with it?

Letting the world fall apart around us? This country alone could stop world-wide hunger with what we throw out after dinner! Are you really blaming God for this? He has already given us everything we need to solve this problem - what's the deal?

Ego? Politics - getting re-elected? Money? Oil?

Which one, or all of the above is causing this country to allow tiny children worldwide to die of starvation? Shame on us!! WE are here now!

[fredonly]

lets say for arguements sake that a god did exist.Wouldn't it be helpful if god simply just rid the world of say....child starvation.All at once.Instead of humans slowly trying to alliviate the problem which they would never stop all at once.

Yes, it would be simple if it is possible.

However, God has given us this earth to live in and be responsible for. With your logic, aren't WE being lazy & neglectful? Wanting someone else to come in and fix the problem, so we don't have to get our hands dirty?

What would we then do? Sit back, get fat and marvel at how easy God has made life for us? All we have to do is sit around and watch Him fix everything - yeah!

So God lets the children die in order to teach us a lesson! What a Guy!

And I suppose he's also waiting for us to learn how to prevent earthquakes, tsunamis, etc.

No, fredonly. You must re-read my post. My point was that it is OUR responsibility. We wanted freedom....we got it. So, what are we doing with it?

Letting the world fall apart around us? This country alone could stop world-wide hunger with what we throw out after dinner! Are you really blaming God for this? He has already given us everything we need to solve this problem - what's the deal?

Ego? Politics - getting re-elected? Money? Oil?

Which one, or all of the above is causing this country to allow tiny children worldwide to die of starvation? Shame on us!! WE are here now!

You didn't address either of my points.
1) The fact is that the starving children don't deserve to die. You are right that WE let them die. But God also lets them die. He is (in theory) capable of providing them sustenance. The victims, the starving children, are not capable - they are innocent. Why doesn't God help? You answer because it's our responsibility. Now I ask: why is it our responsibility? The only plausible answer is: because we have the capability to help them. The same answer applies to God: he has the capability. I can ask this a different way: why DON'T we help the starving children? The inescapable reason is: because we don't care enough. The exact same answer applies to God: he doesn't care enough.

2) You didn't address natural disasters. Similar logic applies. We lack the capability to prevent these, so clearly we don't have responsibility to prevent them. God has the capability to prevent. Why doesn't he? He evidently doesn't care enough.

[justifyothers]

lets say for arguements sake that a god did exist.Wouldn't it be helpful if god simply just rid the world of say....child starvation.All at once.Instead of humans slowly trying to alliviate the problem which they would never stop all at once.

Yes, it would be simple if it is possible.

However, God has given us this earth to live in and be responsible for. With your logic, aren't WE being lazy & neglectful? Wanting someone else to come in and fix the problem, so we don't have to get our hands dirty?

What would we then do? Sit back, get fat and marvel at how easy God has made life for us? All we have to do is sit around and watch Him fix everything - yeah!

So God lets the children die in order to teach us a lesson! What a Guy!

And I suppose he's also waiting for us to learn how to prevent earthquakes, tsunamis, etc.

No, fredonly. You must re-read my post. My point was that it is OUR responsibility. We wanted freedom....we got it. So, what are we doing with it?

Letting the world fall apart around us? This country alone could stop world-wide hunger with what we throw out after dinner! Are you really blaming God for this? He has already given us everything we need to solve this problem - what's the deal?

Ego? Politics - getting re-elected? Money? Oil?

Which one, or all of the above is causing this country to allow tiny children worldwide to die of starvation? Shame on us!! WE are here now!

You didn't address either of my points.
1) The fact is that the starving children don't deserve to die. You are right that WE let them die. But God also lets them die. He is (in theory) capable of providing them sustenance. The victims, the starving children, are not capable - they are innocent. Why doesn't God help? You answer because it's our responsibility. Now I ask: why is it our responsibility? The only plausible answer is: because we have the capability to help them. The same answer applies to God: he has the capability. I can ask this a different way: why DON'T we help the starving children? The inescapable reason is: because we don't care enough. The exact same answer applies to God: he doesn't care enough.

2) You didn't address natural disasters. Similar logic applies. We lack the capability to prevent these, so clearly we don't have responsibility to prevent them. God has the capability to prevent. Why doesn't he? He evidently doesn't care enough.

Well, I think you're right - I didn't mean to ignore your points. Guess I was trying to make mine. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back =been out of town.

So, why does God let these horrible things happen, when He can stop them at any time.....well, CAN He stop them? Why do we think He has complete control over EVERYTHING? I know we read this in the bible, but, is that really even proven? Even if biblical experts say that this is the case, how do we know this for sure?

It could be that God created this world, left it up to us to tend to (after giving us the necessary resourses) and perhaps can't interfere according to the laws of the very nature He created....possible?

I mean, if God could interfere with every wrong-doing, how much of our own character would be shown or learned from? If one believes in God, one usually believes in some kind of plan... I'm not so sure God CAN jump in & help when we can do it ourselves.....or maybe He just wants to show us how extremely selfish we are.

[fredonly]

lets say for arguements sake that a god did exist.Wouldn't it be helpful if god simply just rid the world of say....child starvation.All at once.Instead of humans slowly trying to alliviate the problem which they would never stop all at once.

Yes, it would be simple if it is possible.

However, God has given us this earth to live in and be responsible for. With your logic, aren't WE being lazy & neglectful? Wanting someone else to come in and fix the problem, so we don't have to get our hands dirty?

What would we then do? Sit back, get fat and marvel at how easy God has made life for us? All we have to do is sit around and watch Him fix everything - yeah!

So God lets the children die in order to teach us a lesson! What a Guy!

And I suppose he's also waiting for us to learn how to prevent earthquakes, tsunamis, etc.

No, fredonly. You must re-read my post. My point was that it is OUR responsibility. We wanted freedom....we got it. So, what are we doing with it?

Letting the world fall apart around us? This country alone could stop world-wide hunger with what we throw out after dinner! Are you really blaming God for this? He has already given us everything we need to solve this problem - what's the deal?

Ego? Politics - getting re-elected? Money? Oil?

Which one, or all of the above is causing this country to allow tiny children worldwide to die of starvation? Shame on us!! WE are here now!

You didn't address either of my points.
1) The fact is that the starving children don't deserve to die. You are right that WE let them die. But God also lets them die. He is (in theory) capable of providing them sustenance. The victims, the starving children, are not capable - they are innocent. Why doesn't God help? You answer because it's our responsibility. Now I ask: why is it our responsibility? The only plausible answer is: because we have the capability to help them. The same answer applies to God: he has the capability. I can ask this a different way: why DON'T we help the starving children? The inescapable reason is: because we don't care enough. The exact same answer applies to God: he doesn't care enough.

2) You didn't address natural disasters. Similar logic applies. We lack the capability to prevent these, so clearly we don't have responsibility to prevent them. God has the capability to prevent. Why doesn't he? He evidently doesn't care enough.

Well, I think you're right - I didn't mean to ignore your points. Guess I was trying to make mine. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back =been out of town.

So, why does God let these horrible things happen, when He can stop them at any time.....well, CAN He stop them? Why do we think He has complete control over EVERYTHING? I know we read this in the bible, but, is that really even proven? Even if biblical experts say that this is the case, how do we know this for sure?

It could be that God created this world, left it up to us to tend to (after giving us the necessary resourses) and perhaps can't interfere according to the laws of the very nature He created....possible?

I mean, if God could interfere with every wrong-doing, how much of our own character would be shown or learned from? If one believes in God, one usually believes in some kind of plan... I'm not so sure God CAN jump in & help when we can do it ourselves.....or maybe He just wants to show us how extremely selfish we are.

You just made the the case that God is not omnipotent. The whole point of the "suffering" argument is that God cannot have all 3 of these characteristics: 1) omnipotent; 2) omniscient; 3) all-loving

God can be 2 out of 3, but not all 3. The commonly held Christian belief is that God is all 3, and this is a belief in a logical impossibility.

[therolanpen]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

This is not God's domain. Jesus said "In THIS LIFE, you WILL have tribulation."
This is the place of tribulation. The nature of Life is suffering. It is not from God, and we are not god's kids. Jesus said our father is the devil, and we do his works, and that is why we suffer. We are caught in cyclical living. We kill, and we are killed. We wound and we are wounded. We have never learned the ways of God, and cannot escape the inevitable consequences of our wrong thinking and wrong doing.

Until Jesus taught us how. Turn the other cheek. Judge no one. Love one another as you love yourself.

[fredonly]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

This is not God's domain. Jesus said "In THIS LIFE, you WILL have tribulation."
This is the place of tribulation. The nature of Life is suffering. It is not from God, and we are not god's kids. Jesus said our father is the devil, and we do his works, and that is why we suffer. We are caught in cyclical living. We kill, and we are killed. We wound and we are wounded. We have never learned the ways of God, and cannot escape the inevitable consequences of our wrong thinking and wrong doing.

Until Jesus taught us how. Turn the other cheek. Judge no one. Love one another as you love yourself.

That's nice. Now answer Ravenstorm's question.

[Jester]

Thought I'd add a comment...

You just made the the case that God is not omnipotent. The whole point of the "suffering" argument is that God cannot have all 3 of these characteristics: 1) omnipotent; 2) omniscient; 3) all-loving

God can be 2 out of 3, but not all 3. The commonly held Christian belief is that God is all 3, and this is a belief in a logical impossibility.

This is an understandable problem, but I'd wonder if we can really conclude that omnipotence was ever really a necessary trait of God. It is very common for Christian theologians to state that God can't force people to love him.
That, in addition to the classic point that God would have reasons beyond those we comprehend, would make me reticent to reject God's existence on these grounds.

[Chris..]

Rather than debate whether God can, or cannot, stop suffering I am interested in the cause of much of the suffering throughout history...

This is what I am thinking. Where am I going wrong?

Why did God choose to send mankind signs and instructions that could be so easily misunderstood and misinterpreted in so many conflicting ways, by the target audience he himself created.

As the cleverest entity in the universe, God obviously knew powerful people would exploit any ambiguity in his messages to further their own individual power grabbing agendas. So, why then did God choose to issue such complex messages, knowing exactly the deaths and suffering that would happen as a result, unless of course, his true purpose was to incite conflict, confusion and hatred?

If it was just a genuine mistake or oversight, why did he not subsequently reissue an updated or simplified message to stop the killing and suffering, often done in his name, and directly caused by his own ambiguity?

Unless you can convince me otherwise, this is why, if God exists, he would not receive my adoration.

(So complex, that in forum such as these, two thousand years later, we are still debating and disagreeing on what God meant... Ridiculous)

[EduChris]

...why...did God choose to issue such complex messages...

"Loving your neighbor as yourself" is difficult to put into practice, but I don't see why the message itself should be considered overly "complex."

But then again, even very intelligent politicians can get confused about the meaning of the simple, two-letter word "is."