Burn Koran Day

[micatala]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/08/20/a ... tml?hpt=C2


Some passages:

(CNN) -- In less than a month, Pastor Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Center in Florida plans to host "Burn a Quran Day" to mark the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

The pastor, author of the book "Islam is of the Devil," is using the burning to urge American Christians to "stand up" to what he describes as a monolithic Muslim threat.

. . .

At a recent dinner in Washington, a host for one of Pakistan's top TV channels confided in me that he "didn't dare" report the story because if he did, "not a single American would be safe in Pakistan." He and the cameraman were quivering with anger as they asked me to explain why Americans hated Islam.

I tried my best to explain this was not the case, but Jones' burning will have great symbolic significance to a Muslim world already feeling under attack by the United States. It will cause undue harm to U.S. relations with the Muslim world and particularly the war effort.

Questions for debate:


Is this action by Pastor Jones un-Christian?

Is this action dangerous, perhaps even treasonous in its effect?

Should Americans be killed as a result of this action, should it not be cancelled, would Pastor Jones share any responsibility for it?

[cnorman18]

Thanks, but I would like you to first answer my question of whether free speech should be curtailed because of threats of violence.

As I said in the beginning, it is a Constitutional right of Americans to say stupid things. When those stupid things result in damage or loss of life, the only remedy, unfortunately, is civil law; but that can only apply after the fact.

No, free speech should not be curtailed, and I don't think anyone here has proposed that. But I think it is also a matter of free speech to loudly and publicly condemn stupid, dangerous acts as just that, and to speak up and say so when someone betrays his own professed faith with acts that are as far from the example of Jesus as is imaginable, next to outright murder. It shouldn't be Muslims condemning Jones's bigotry and hatred; that job rightly belongs to Christians, and there are those who are doing just that. Bravo to them.

Jones is about as Christian, and his acts about as representative of authentic Christianity, as the hooded thugs of the Ku Klux Klan. Let such contemptible, bigoted savages speak freely. Let them show what FALSE Christianity, used to cover and justify an agenda of hatred and bigotry, looks like.

And let those whose lives he damages, directly or indirectly, by his egregious idiocy and hatred, line up to take him to court and keep him in expensive litigation for the rest of his life. Let him preach to his fellow bigots, but let him do it in rags from under a bridge. It's what he deserves.

[cnorman18]

K, you oppose free speech because you oppose the Koran Burning....

See my last post. If you're going to misstate my position, we have nothing to talk about. Have a nice day.

[Grumpy]

WinePusher

why can it not be moved a few blocks away in order to respect that hallowed ground, are muslims this intolerant?

It already is several blocks away at Park Place, it is not on the Ground Zero site.



The place used to be a Burlington Coat Factory(hallowed ground?)but has been a muslim center for years, they own it. This is just another synthetic contraversy ginned up by Faux News(one of who's owners actually FINANCED the mosque to the praises of Glenn Beck, Shaun Hannity and several other hypocritical "news" people on Faux).

I'm wondering why the flag burners and the President oppose the Koran burning, but don't oppose the mosque.

Aside from the perjoritive"flag burners" the desecration of a religion's holy books is not in any way morally equivalent to the ginned up protestations of a Mosque that has been planned(not in secrecy)for years.

We Jews have seen the Roman Catholic Church, various kings and priests, and most recently the Nazis, confiscate and burn our sacred books for centuries.

An equivocation fallacy.

Er...no. The burning of Koran's by Christian bigots is EXACTLY equivalent of burning Torahs by Christian bigots.

Grumpy

[WinePusher]

K, you oppose free speech because you oppose the Koran Burning....

See my last post. If you're going to misstate my position, we have nothing to talk about. Have a nice day.

Perhaps you can post my mistatement of your opinion, instead of this unfounded accusation?

So we who oppose the mosque don't support what America was founded on.

That was what I asked micatala. Here's what you said:

That would be correct. It's a principle called "religious freedom," and it's found in the First Amendment to the Constitution.

Apparently, the burning of flags and Qurans is also protected by the first amendment which you cite. So if YOU are telling me that I oppose what America was founded on, why are you then hurt when I reciprocate that same attack?

[cnorman18]

K, you oppose free speech because you oppose the Koran Burning....

See my last post. If you're going to misstate my position, we have nothing to talk about. Have a nice day.

Perhaps you can post my mistatement of your opinion, instead of this unfounded accusation?

So we who oppose the mosque don't support what America was founded on.

That was what I asked micatala. Here's what you said:

That would be correct. It's a principle called "religious freedom," and it's found in the First Amendment to the Constitution.

Apparently, the burning of flags and Qurans is also protected by the first amendment which you cite. So if YOU are telling me that I oppose what America was founded on, why are you then hurt when I reciprocate that same attack?

Who says I am "hurt"?

Please explain to me why invoking the First Amendment means that I "oppose free speech." That's obviously nonsense.

Further, I DO believe that burning Korans, and the flag for that matter, ARE protected by the First Amendment. I never said those acts should be legally prohibited nor prevented. I also think it's a matter of exercising MY free speech to say that burning Korans is stupid, dangerous, intentionally offensive, and profoundly unChristian.

Opposing the mosque, on the other hand, while also a matter of protected free speech, is based on the false assumption that Islam, and Muslims in general, are to blame for 9/11, which is an egregious falsehood. If Islam is responsible for 9/11, then Christianity is responsible for decades of lynchings and murders of blacks in the Deep South and elsewhere, and no Christian churches should be built south of the Mason-Dixon line. The Ku Klux Klan was an avowedly Christian organization just as Al Qaeda is an avowedly Muslim one.

[East of Eden]

It already is several blocks away at Park Place, it is not on the Ground Zero site.

Ground Zero is whatever was damaged in the 9/11 attacks. This proposed mosque building was, to the point it was vacant afterwards for a long time. Human remains were found 350 feet from it.

[East of Eden]

Thanks, but I would like you to first answer my question of whether free speech should be curtailed because of threats of violence.

As I said in the beginning, it is a Constitutional right of Americans to say stupid things. When those stupid things result in damage or loss of life, the only remedy, unfortunately, is civil law; but that can only apply after the fact.

No, free speech should not be curtailed, and I don't think anyone here has proposed that. But I think it is also a matter of free speech to loudly and publicly condemn stupid, dangerous acts as just that, and to speak up and say so when someone betrays his own professed faith with acts that are as far from the example of Jesus as is imaginable, next to outright murder. It shouldn't be Muslims condemning Jones's bigotry and hatred; that job rightly belongs to Christians, and there are those who are doing just that. Bravo to them.

Jones is about as Christian, and his acts about as representative of authentic Christianity, as the hooded thugs of the Ku Klux Klan. Let such contemptible, bigoted savages speak freely. Let them show what FALSE Christianity, used to cover and justify an agenda of hatred and bigotry, looks like.

And let those whose lives he damages, directly or indirectly, by his egregious idiocy and hatred, line up to take him to court and keep him in expensive litigation for the rest of his life. Let him preach to his fellow bigots, but let him do it in rags from under a bridge. It's what he deserves.

You're certainly not short of names to call people. Is it bigoted and hateful to believe another religion to be wrong?

[cnorman18]

Thanks, but I would like you to first answer my question of whether free speech should be curtailed because of threats of violence.

As I said in the beginning, it is a Constitutional right of Americans to say stupid things. When those stupid things result in damage or loss of life, the only remedy, unfortunately, is civil law; but that can only apply after the fact.

No, free speech should not be curtailed, and I don't think anyone here has proposed that. But I think it is also a matter of free speech to loudly and publicly condemn stupid, dangerous acts as just that, and to speak up and say so when someone betrays his own professed faith with acts that are as far from the example of Jesus as is imaginable, next to outright murder. It shouldn't be Muslims condemning Jones's bigotry and hatred; that job rightly belongs to Christians, and there are those who are doing just that. Bravo to them.

Jones is about as Christian, and his acts about as representative of authentic Christianity, as the hooded thugs of the Ku Klux Klan. Let such contemptible, bigoted savages speak freely. Let them show what FALSE Christianity, used to cover and justify an agenda of hatred and bigotry, looks like.

And let those whose lives he damages, directly or indirectly, by his egregious idiocy and hatred, line up to take him to court and keep him in expensive litigation for the rest of his life. Let him preach to his fellow bigots, but let him do it in rags from under a bridge. It's what he deserves.

You're certainly not short of names to call people. Is it bigoted and hateful to believe another religion to be wrong?

No, but it IS bigoted to spit on it and defame it in public, e.g. by burning its books as a public statement of contempt and by making false claims about its teachings.

If you think I'm posting insults and namecalling, feel free to report my post. And good luck with that.

[Grumpy]

East of Eden

Ground Zero is whatever was damaged in the 9/11 attacks. This proposed mosque building was, to the point it was vacant afterwards for a long time. Human remains were found 350 feet from it.

That building was 2 blocks from the nearest damage from 911(building 7), it was empty for other reasons. It is not part of Ground Zero.

The point is this is a synthetic, cynical and morally bankrupt ploy to inflame passions for political gain. It is one of the things which caused the nutjob in Florida to plan his Koran burning stunt, a stunt likely to get Americans killed for no purpose.

WinePusher

So we who oppose the mosque don't support what America was founded on.

It certainly is not in the spirit of religious tolerance, an American value. Supporting the building of the Muslim center, on the other hand, disarms those who say America does not have any religious tolerance and is at war with Islam. The furror plays right into the lies they use to recruit new Jihadists. And it makes me ashamed that so many understand so little about what freedom means in this country. Of course the lies told about the situation by Faux News don't help.

Apparently, the burning of flags and Qurans is also protected by the first amendment which you cite. So if YOU are telling me that I oppose what America was founded on, why are you then hurt when I reciprocate that same attack?

If you yell fire in a theater where no fire exists, and someone is trampled to death in the ensuing panic, you are a murderer.

If the preacher in Florida burns Korans ONLY FOR HIS OWN SELF-GRANDIZEMENT and he gets Christian Missionaries killed in retaliation, he too is a murderer.

If you preach hatred against homosexuals, blacks, Jews, Hispanics, witches or any other group saying it is god's will and some of your congregation goes out and bombs an abortion clinic, Mosque, Bar, church, school or bus, you are a murderer.

With freedom of speech comes responsibility for what you say. I fought in a war to protect your right to say anything you like, but if what you say leads to someone's harm or death you are responsible. Some of the conservative politicians lately have been coming close with their "Second Amendment Remedies" if they lose the next election and their "enemies in our country" talk. Some loose screw may take such talk seriously, they should be very careful with such stupidity.

Sharron Angle told the Reno Gazette-Journal “...the nation is arming. What are they arming for if it isn't that they are so distrustful of their government? They're afraid they'll have to fight for their liberty in more Second Amendment kinds of ways?... That's why I look at this as almost an imperative. If we don't win at the ballot box, what will be the next step?�

Grumpy

[East of Eden]

That building was 2 blocks from the nearest damage from 911(building 7), it was empty for other reasons. It is not part of Ground Zero.

Wrong. "When United Airlines Flight 175 struck the South Tower of the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, part of the plane's landing gear and fuselage came out the north side of the tower and crashed through the roof of 45–47 Park Place, and through two of its floors. The plane parts destroyed three floor beams, and severely compromised the building's internal structure.[45][29][46][47][48]" Wikipedia

The point is this is a synthetic, cynical and morally bankrupt ploy to inflame passions for political gain.

I take that as your backhanded admission most Americans oppose this mosque being built in such a sensitive area.

Of course the lies told about the situation by Faux News don't help.

It appears to really grind you that the most trusted name in news wipes the ratings floor with the liberal dinosaur MSM who are in the tank for Obama.

If the preacher in Florida burns Korans ONLY FOR HIS OWN SELF-GRANDIZEMENT and he gets Christian Missionaries killed in retaliation, he too is a murderer.

Think a court would convict him of that?

If you preach hatred against homosexuals, blacks, Jews, Hispanics, witches or any other group saying it is god's will and some of your congregation goes out and bombs an abortion clinic, Mosque, Bar, church, school or bus, you are a murderer.

I am a Hispanic, why would I do that?

Sharron Angle told the Reno Gazette-Journal “...the nation is arming. What are they arming for if it isn't that they are so distrustful of their government? They're afraid they'll have to fight for their liberty in more Second Amendment kinds of ways?... That's why I look at this as almost an imperative. If we don't win at the ballot box, what will be the next step?�

Sounds like something the Founders would say.

The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."

-- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story of the John Marshall Court

Militias, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms. [...] To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.

-- Senator Richard Henry Lee, 1788, on "militia" in the 2nd Amendment



Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. [...] the right of the citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government and one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible.

-- Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960