Who or what is satan?

[Skyangel]

This subject came up on another thread.

Most Christians perceive the concept of Satan/devil in the bible as a fallen angel.
The bible refers to Satan in many different ways including as the "god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4 )

2 Cor 4:4 is obviously referring to the devil as a god.
Are all the fallen angels also gods?

The bible calls sons of God, gods. ( Psalm 82:6, John 10:34)
Satan was one of the sons of God according to Job 1:6 , Job 2:1,


According to the bible, Sons of God are gods, ( please see above scripture references) Satan is one of the sons of God who also has sons according the scriptures which call the devil, the father of liars according to John 8:44.
By implication if the devil is the father of anything then he has children who are his "sons" and "daughters" or whatever you wish to call his offspring.

Naz gave me a scale and asked me a question.

Not bad, it’s a start. Here is a scale.God – Son of God – Angels – People – Earth –Fallen Angels – Satan. See who is in the middle. Care to add anything or break it down any further than that?

Edit: took a reference out beside a scale name, since i didn't add them to others and plan to keep the scale simple.

First of all Naz, did you make this scale up yourself? If not, where did you get it ?

Why did you add "Earth" to a list of Spiritual beings?

Where do you place "sons of God" on your scale?
Where do you place "sons of the devil" on your scale?
Where is the devil referred to as an angel in scripture other than 2Cor 11:14 which refers to him as an "angel of light" but implies from verse 13 that it is a deception?

How is the Hebrew word 'elohiym " translated as "angels" in Psalm 8:5 any different to the Hebrew word ''elohiym" translated as "gods" in Psalm 82:6 ?

If children (sons) of God are referred to as gods and also referred to as angels, does that make angels who are "elohiym", also gods who are "elohiym"?

Do you believe the devil is a son of God or not according to Job 1:6 , Job 2:1 ?

Who or what is the devil/satan?
*A man?
*A Spirit?
*An angel?
*A god?
*Other?

Please explain the answer you give and tell us why you chose that answer.

[therolanpen]

This subject came up on another thread.

Most Christians perceive the concept of Satan/devil in the bible as a fallen angel.
The bible refers to Satan in many different ways including as the "god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4 )

2 Cor 4:4 is obviously referring to the devil as a god.
Are all the fallen angels also gods?

The god of the Bible is Allah. The word angel simply means messenger. The angels are the messengers of Allah. They are not supernatural beings, but men, who carry the message of ALLAH.

The bible calls sons of God, gods. ( Psalm 82:6, John 10:34)
Satan was one of the sons of God according to Job 1:6 , Job 2:1,

The Bible calls the sons of Allah, God's. Not Gods. The sons of God are God's because they belong to God, and are God's sons. Psalms 82:6 is self explanitory "I have said Ye are God's, you are children of the most high God."
Likewise, John 10:34 " Is it not written by god himself 'i said ye are God's? and if God himself called them God's (sons) to whom the word of god came, say ye of him whom the father has sanctified, thou blasphemest, because I said, I am God's (son) also?"

According to the bible, Sons of God are gods, ( please see above scripture references) Satan is one of the sons of God who also has sons according the scriptures which call the devil, the father of liars according to John 8:44.
By implication if the devil is the father of anything then he has children who are his "sons" and "daughters" or whatever you wish to call his offspring.

The God of the Old Testament is Allah, Olah, Elah-im, which in the Hebrew, is literally interpreted "holocaust", burnt offering and sacrifice. Jesus called him the devil. He is a god who kills, steals, and destroys. He wages Jihad. Jesus called Allah's disciples, the Pharisees (Farsi's) children of damnation who could not escape hell, blind guides, children of adulterers, murderers of the prophets. They are the sons of God/ALLah, made in the image of Allah. They do the works of their father, who is a liar and a murderer from the beginning. They are the messengers/angels of Allah, who is their god.

[Skyangel]

This subject came up on another thread.

Most Christians perceive the concept of Satan/devil in the bible as a fallen angel.
The bible refers to Satan in many different ways including as the "god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4 )

2 Cor 4:4 is obviously referring to the devil as a god.
Are all the fallen angels also gods?

The god of the Bible is Allah. The word angel simply means messenger. The angels are the messengers of Allah. They are not supernatural beings, but men, who carry the message of ALLAH.

You appear to be confused between the Bible and the Quran. The God of the bible is not called Allah. Allah is the god of the Quran. The God of the bible is YHWH. Although apparently Allah simply means God anyway and I cannot read or understand Arabic so I do not know if the Torah calls God Allah in Arabic or if the name is still YHWH in Arabic as well. I am aware that God has many names so there is really no point in arguing about the names.

The bible calls sons of God, gods. ( Psalm 82:6, John 10:34)
Satan was one of the sons of God according to Job 1:6 , Job 2:1,

The Bible calls the sons of Allah, God's. Not Gods. The sons of God are God's because they belong to God, and are God's sons. Psalms 82:6 is self explanitory "I have said Ye are God's, you are children of the most high God."
Likewise, John 10:34 " Is it not written by god himself 'i said ye are God's? and if God himself called them God's (sons) to whom the word of god came, say ye of him whom the father has sanctified, thou blasphemest, because I said, I am God's (son) also?"

You are mistaken. The word is" 'elohiym " translated as gods not God's. It is the same word as the word in Gen 3:5. where it talks to people about becoming as gods. People already belonged to God before they became as gods. Therefore it is not suggesting ownership but divine attributes.
Can you read and understand any other language than English? If so what other languages can you read and understand fluently? Please read it in a different language and you will see it is not referring to ownership but attributes.
French " Vous êtes des dieux"
German " Ihr seid Götter"
Italian "Voi siete dèi"

According to the bible, Sons of God are gods, ( please see above scripture references) Satan is one of the sons of God who also has sons according the scriptures which call the devil, the father of liars according to John 8:44.
By implication if the devil is the father of anything then he has children who are his "sons" and "daughters" or whatever you wish to call his offspring.

The God of the Old Testament is Allah, Olah, Elah-im, which in the Hebrew, is literally interpreted "holocaust", burnt offering and sacrifice. Jesus called him the devil. He is a god who kills, steals, and destroys. He wages Jihad. Jesus called Allah's disciples, the Pharisees (Farsi's) children of damnation who could not escape hell, blind guides, children of adulterers, murderers of the prophets. They are the sons of God/ALLah, made in the image of Allah. They do the works of their father, who is a liar and a murderer from the beginning. They are the messengers/angels of Allah, who is their god.

Are you saying that Allah is the devil?
If Allah is the god of the Pharisees and they are children of damnation etc. Who do you say is the God and Father of Jesus?
Do you perceive Jesus to also be a messenger of the father who is a liar and a murderer from the beginning or do you think Jesus had a different Father, a different God?

If sons of God are mere men then their Father must also be a mere man if men are created in the image of their Father since all things reproduce after their own kind according to nature as well as according to biblical principles. ( See Genesis 1 "after his kind")
Good reproduces good.
Evil reproduces evil.

Do we therefore have two Gods in the beginning, a good one and an evil one, or just one who is both good and evil?

[Slopeshoulder]

Satan is a metaphor, an archetype. What the Bible says about Satan is a record of how several people in different times worked to and with this metaphor or archetype.

[Skyangel]

Satan is a metaphor, an archetype. What the Bible says about Satan is a record of how several people in different times worked to and with this metaphor or archetype.

What in your opinion does the metaphor "satan" represent in reality?
Is God also a metaphor in your opinion ?
If not, who or what is God?
If so what does the metaphor "God represent in reality?

[Slopeshoulder]

Satan is a metaphor, an archetype. What the Bible says about Satan is a record of how several people in different times worked to and with this metaphor or archetype.

What in your opinion does the metaphor "satan" represent in reality?

I can't possibly to it justice, but some of it would be:
- the tendency to make self the ultimate reality
- the divinisation of the finite
- the tendency to do evil or at least willfully fall short of and contradict our ethical aspirations
- ego, deception, will to power, aggrandizement, arrogance, exploitation, violence
- self-inflicted suffering, death wish, masochism
- nihilism, turning away from light
etc.

Is God also a metaphor in your opinion ?
If not, who or what is God?
If so what does the metaphor "God represent in reality?

IMO (as you correctly state) God is a word we use for our perceptions, imaginings, longings, and perceived experience of the ultimate, the god beyond God, the ground of being, the unknown presence, the horizon, wholeness, the one, the undifferentiated, the creative urge, love, etc etc. Might be real, might be metaphorical. But if real, we can only speak if it in metaphors, symbols, etc.


So Satan is a metaphor, a literary device.
God is spoken of in terms of metaphor, real or not.

Why do I think god is possibly real and satan isn't? It has to do with how I was taught that ancient religious literature functions. But I'm too rusty on that to go deeply into it.

[Skyangel]

What in your opinion does the metaphor "satan" represent in reality?

I can't possibly to it justice, but some of it would be:
- the tendency to make self the ultimate reality
- the divinisation of the finite
- the tendency to do evil or at least willfully fall short of and contradict our ethical aspirations
- ego, deception, will to power, aggrandizement, arrogance, exploitation, violence
- self-inflicted suffering, death wish, masochism
- nihilism, turning away from light
etc.

Is God also a metaphor in your opinion ?
If not, who or what is God?
If so what does the metaphor "God represent in reality?

IMO (as you correctly state) God is a word we use for our perceptions, imaginings, longings, and perceived experience of the ultimate, the god beyond God, the ground of being, the unknown presence, the horizon, wholeness, the one, the undifferentiated, the creative urge, love, etc etc. Might be real, might be metaphorical. But if real, we can only speak if it in metaphors, symbols, etc.


So Satan is a metaphor, a literary device.
God is spoken of in terms of metaphor, real or not.

Why do I think god is possibly real and satan isn't? It has to do with how I was taught that ancient religious literature functions. But I'm too rusty on that to go deeply into it.

Let's start with the tendency to do evil since it keeps things simple and I think most people understand that tendency.
If satan is the tendency to do evil, then would all people have that tendency in their nature since all people have the ability to do evil?
Would you say all people have satan in them which is the tendency to do evil?

If satan is the tendency to do evil, is God the tendency to do good?
Would you say all people have in their nature a tendency to do good as well as a tendency to do evil?
Would that mean people have in them, God as well as satan?

Is the tendency to good or evil in people a real tendency or an imaginary tendency?
Would you say that a person who does evil is satan personified?
Would you say that a person who does good is God personified?

Would you say that God or satan can be seen in people?

[Slopeshoulder]

Let's start with the tendency to do evil since it keeps things simple and I think most people understand that tendency.
If satan is the tendency to do evil, then would all people have that tendency in their nature since all people have the ability to do evil?

Satan isn't the tendency to do evil. Satan is a word that metaphorically refers to that tendency.

Would you say all people have satan in them which is the tendency to do evil?

I would say that all people have the tendency to fall short of our collective and individual ethical aspirations. Not sure I'd call it all evil. if I did, i retract and change it as expressed here.

If satan is the tendency to do evil, is God the tendency to do good?

God is more than that. But God includes the orientation to and desire for good, including good in action.

Would you say all people have in their nature a tendency to do good as well as a tendency to do evil?

Humanity has the desire for good and a tendency to fall short of that sometimes and also do achieve it at other times. Where are you going with this?

Would that mean people have in them, God as well as satan?

Sure, as metaphors.

Is the tendency to good or evil in people a real tendency or an imaginary tendency?

Based on statistics and millennia of commonsense observation, experience, reportage, and reflection, it seems real.

Would you say that a person who does evil is satan personified?

Sounds harsh. Can metaphors incarnate?

Would you say that a person who does good is God personified?

Sounds generous. Can metaphors incarnate?

Would you say that God or satan can be seen in people?

As metaphors, both.

[Skyangel]

Satan isn't the tendency to do evil. Satan is a word that metaphorically refers to that tendency.

Actually satan is a Hebrew word which means adversary; one who withstands; one who opposes another in purpose or act.
Any person who is an adversary of anyone else is a satan in the Hebrew language.

Would that mean people have in them, God as well as satan?

Sure, as metaphors.

Then you agree that God and satan are both metaphors for the tendency to do good or evil in people and these tendencies are very real. This creates a conflict inside mankind when they need to choose between good and evil especially when the evil looks enticing.

Would you say that a person who does evil is satan personified?

Sounds harsh. Can metaphors incarnate?

Sure they can. When good or evil manifests itself in a person it makes the person good or evil. Since good and evil are the reality of the metaphors God and satan,
those people who are good become gods and those who are evil become devils.
Do you have any problem with that logic?

[Slopeshoulder]

Satan isn't the tendency to do evil. Satan is a word that metaphorically refers to that tendency.

Actually satan is a Hebrew word which means adversary; one who withstands; one who opposes another in purpose or act.
Any person who is an adversary of anyone else is a satan in the Hebrew language.

Yes, but I refer to the meaning that has been layered into the word in the past 3000 years.

When good or evil manifests itself in a person it makes the person good or evil. Since good and evil are the reality of the metaphors God and satan,
those people who are good become gods and those who are evil become devils.
Do you have any problem with that logic?

Yes, all of it. But I think it's a question of semantics and definitions, as well as the predicates become and manifest and the existants gods and devils, etc. The layers of wrong and the leaps are too much to go into. I suspect that you are about to launch into a sophistic redefine-everything sermon, so I will deprt now and leave it to the reader.