Second Coming Doctrine ?

[Skyangel]

Christianity teaches that Christ will literally return to earth in the clouds one day.

Do you believe this doctrine is true or do you believe it is a false doctrine?
Is Jesus coming again or is He already here ?

I take the stand that the doctrine is false and Christians are believing in some religious fairy tale.

The reason I make this claim is because the doctrine makes no sense if you take it literally.

The Jesus of the bible told His disciples He would be with them always till the end of the world and never leave or forsake them.
Mat 28:20 .................... lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Hbr 13:5 ................ for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Did He lie and leave them after all or are Christians not disciples?

Logically, If you have a friend who never leaves you or forsakes you in reality but is with you always then you have no reason to be waiting for them to return since they never left in the first place. Therefore it is illogical to be waiting for some second return of Jesus, if Jesus is indeed with you always, is it not? It is sheer stupidity to be waiting for someone to return if that person is always with you and never left you in the first place.

It appears that most Christians have been separated from their omnipresent invisible God. Most of them think Jesus is God and obviously their Jesus is not on this earth since they are waiting for Him to return. Therefore He can't be with them. If He was, they would not be waiting for Him to return.

[Skyangel]

Christ speaking about his resurrection in John 14:19. What did you think he was talking about?

I am not disputing that He was talking about His death and resurrection. I am saying take notice of the words " The world will see me no more"
It makes no difference if He is talking about His resurrection or "second coming" or any other return. That is irrelevant to the point I am making. The fact is He said the world will not see him any more.
When Jesus says the world will see Him no more, He means never again, no more.
He was not telling lies since He always spoke the truth.

Therefore what makes any Christians think the whole world will literally see Him again one day? That is what most christians teach is it not? They claim Jesus will literally return in the literal clouds and literally rule the literal world from Jerusalem?

Here we go.... Jesus abides with all believers today. He is one with us in the same way as he and the Father were one, by the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is not here in flesh rather the Spirit unites us, by joining himself to our spirit.

What you say is what I have heard many Christians say. It is what you have been indoctrinated to say not what you have thought up all by yourself. Those words to me sound like a parrot is talking to me and the fact that you do not believe Jesus is here in the flesh proves you are not of God but are antichist according to the scriptures themselves which say that those who do not acknowledge Jesus as being on earth in the flesh are antichrist.

Here is the scriptural proof

1Jo 4:2-3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You will notice that scripture is present tense not past tense. That scripture remains eternally present tense and tells us Jesus Christ is eternally in this world in the flesh. and those who confess that Truth are of God and those who do not confess that truth are antichrist. Those who are one with Jesus in the same way as Jesus was and is and always will be one with the father can see the father in the flesh in the same way Jesus can because they are the word made flesh which always dwells among us. Jesus disciples can see Him in the flesh. The world cannot and will not because they are antichrist. and God has sent them a strong delusion because they reject the truth and call it a lie and can therefore not see the truth.

They are waiting for the messiah to return as some "king" the same way the Pharisees were waiting for a Messiah for come to them as a "king" way back in the days of the bible stories and then they rejected the King when He told them He was the Son of God. They called Him a liar.
Most Christians are under the same delusions which the Pharisees suffered from. They too are waiting for some supernatural king and cannot see the humble despised servant in front of them. They still hate and despise the Truth.

I guess you are well and truly indoctrinated.

I can echo those words straight back at you and ask you to apply them to yourself. I am your mirror. You see yourself in me. You reap what you sow.

Did you ever read the bible?

I have been studying the bible for over 40 years. I have lost count of the times I have read it cover to cover and even listened to it in my sleep. I have it playing on disk as I sleep.
What about you ?

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

If who fall away?

Who do you think it is talking about? Read Heb 6: 4-5 and find out . It is referring to professing believers who once claimed to love the Lord and follow Him and who then decide to turn their backs on Him. It is talking about those who have heard the truth and rejected it. It is talking about those who have been enlightened and then turn away from the truth. Many people turn away from the truth daily and crucify Jesus ( truth ) afresh daily.

The truth is far greater and that is what should be in you.
If he had sent you then you would do and say as he did.

I do and say what I see and hear the Father say and do . My words are not my own but His that sent me.

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

So who is the Lord Jesus?

Love faith.xx

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Truth that sets people free. He is the Word of Truth made flesh who is physically on this planet today and always will be physically on this planet in the flesh. Anyone who claims He is not, is either antichrist or has been indoctrinated by the antichrist to believe in a false Christ and all the false doctrines which go with the belief in a false Christ.

The flesh of the Lord Jesus on this earth today is His body which is all His true disciples who can literally see Him since He is with them always and never leaves or forsakes them. They live and walk in Truth daily and get called liars and of the devil in the same way Jesus does. He is the same yesterday Today and Forever.

[Skyangel]

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.


I have always found these scriptures to be interesting.
The word which has been translated as lightning is the Greek word "astrape" which is actually referring to the gleaming of a lamp or to the light itself not particularly to literal lightning. The same word is translated as "light shining" in Luke 11:36

The only light that shines from east to west is the sun and that sun visually "returns" to earth daily each morning yet at the same time never leaves the earth.
This is what Jesus was referring to when He spoke about never leaving or forsaking his disciples yet also coming again to receive more people to himself daily through the revelation of the light which shines into their hearts. "

He was not talking about any literal second coming in the clouds.
If He was comparing his "coming again" to the sun then it is daily.
If He was comparing His coming again to actual lightning then lightning strikes this earth over a 100 times per second and over a million times in one day. Some estimate it at 8,640,000 per day. This is not twice in a lifetime and neither is the sunrise and sunset just twice in a lifetime.

Jesus is Revelation of the Truth, it is the light going on in the spirit of man. That Revelation is shining on earth at all times in the same way the sun is always shining on earth at all times whether we see it or not. those who want to find it will find the Truth of it and throw away their false doctrines of any literal second coming. The second Adam is a Spirit who is invisible. The only way to see Him is in the Spirit which is in His people, His children who are gods.

Those who are waiting for a literal second coming will be waiting for all eternity since the word of God and all its promises are eternal promises which apply to all generations of the past present and future. The Word of God is stable and does not change.

[OnceConvinced]

Hi Skyangel, I like your thinking here on this topic. Would you consider yourself a preterist at all?

[Skyangel]

Hi Skyangel, I think I like your way of thinking here on this topic. Would you consider yourself a preterist at all?

No, I don't label myself at all. Jesus never labeled Himself as anything but the Son of God so neither should we.

I believe the whole word of God was and is and is to come. I believe all the prophecies in the Word were and are and are to come for all eternity. I perceive them like a life cycle of prophecy which keeps repeating itself in essence like history repeating itself continually in its cycles. Eternal life is an eternal life cycle which keeps repeating itself through birth and death to the physical as well as to spiritual in the sense of old things passing away and being replaced with the new constantly.

When it comes to revelation, I believe God gives us more as we become mature enough to handle it with spiritual understanding and learn to put away childish things like religious fairy tales and false doctrines which do not and cannot apply to yesterday today and forever.
Truth applies to past present and future at all times and does not change in principle.

[Student]

I think the second coming dogma is rather silly and not in the least bit credible. I reckon in 2000 years time some will still be declaring "THE END IS NIGH!"

Come on Rose-Mary, why must you always be so hard on them!

[bjs]

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.


I have always found these scriptures to be interesting.
The word which has been translated as lightning is the Greek word "astrape" which is actually referring to the gleaming of a lamp or to the light itself not particularly to literal lightning. The same word is translated as "light shining" in Luke 11:36

The only light that shines from east to west is the sun and that sun visually "returns" to earth daily each morning yet at the same time never leaves the earth.
This is what Jesus was referring to when He spoke about never leaving or forsaking his disciples yet also coming again to receive more people to himself daily through the revelation of the light which shines into their hearts. "

The context of Matthew 24:27 is a warning to not listen to people who falsely claim to be the Christ.

Matthew 24:26-27 says:
So if anyone tells you, “There he is, out in the desert,� do not go out; or, “Here he is, in the inner rooms,� do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

I’m not sure if the Greek word could be used to refer to the Sun or not, but either way the setting is of a unique and indisputable event. This is not about the daily presence of Christ. I agree that our Lord is with us daily, but in context he is talking about an event so clear that no one will be left to wonder about it. When the Son of Man comes it will be unquestionable, unlike the coming of those who falsely claim to be the Christ.

[Skyangel]

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.


I have always found these scriptures to be interesting.
The word which has been translated as lightning is the Greek word "astrape" which is actually referring to the gleaming of a lamp or to the light itself not particularly to literal lightning. The same word is translated as "light shining" in Luke 11:36

The only light that shines from east to west is the sun and that sun visually "returns" to earth daily each morning yet at the same time never leaves the earth.
This is what Jesus was referring to when He spoke about never leaving or forsaking his disciples yet also coming again to receive more people to himself daily through the revelation of the light which shines into their hearts. "

The context of Matthew 24:27 is a warning to not listen to people who falsely claim to be the Christ.

Matthew 24:26-27 says:
So if anyone tells you, “There he is, out in the desert,� do not go out; or, “Here he is, in the inner rooms,� do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

I’m not sure if the Greek word could be used to refer to the Sun or not, but either way the setting is of a unique and indisputable event. This is not about the daily presence of Christ. I agree that our Lord is with us daily, but in context he is talking about an event so clear that no one will be left to wonder about it. When the Son of Man comes it will be unquestionable, unlike the coming of those who falsely claim to be the Christ.

Yes it is a warning and logically if you think about the doctrines of the literal second coming of Christ in literal clouds to become the literal ruler of the world for a literal one thousand years, it would follow that if it did ever happen, people would literally be able to say Christ is ruling in Jerusalem. The bible tells us to not believe such a thing because the coming of Christ is no more literal than the coming of the sun to earth. It is something that is a repetitive process like light that begins in the east and ends in the west and then repeats itself again and again and again, or like lightning which is constantly flashing around the earth whether anyone can see it or not.

How clear is the event of the sunrise and sunset? Is it indisputable? Does it happen as regularly as clockwork?
The Truth is standing right in front of people and they cant even see it because they are too busy waiting for their fairy stories to come to pass so they can live happily ever after.

The second Adam is a Spirit. Spirits are invisible. How do you ever expect to literally see the Spirit of Christ?

Jesus was talking about a spiritual event that happens daily in reality not about some unique physical event that will only happen once in the life of the whole universe.

God is a Spirit and they that worship the Spirit must worship in Spirit and in Truth.
To worship a Spirit in Spirit you must be in the Spirit and the Spirit in you daily, every day for your whole life.

I am in Him and He is in me.

[OnceConvinced]

Hi Skyangel, I think I like your way of thinking here on this topic. Would you consider yourself a preterist at all?

No, I don't label myself at all. Jesus never labeled Himself as anything but the Son of God so neither should we.

I believe the whole word of God was and is and is to come. I believe all the prophecies in the Word were and are and are to come for all eternity. I perceive them like a life cycle of prophecy which keeps repeating itself in essence like history repeating itself continually in its cycles. Eternal life is an eternal life cycle which keeps repeating itself through birth and death to the physical as well as to spiritual in the sense of old things passing away and being replaced with the new constantly.

When it comes to revelation, I believe God gives us more as we become mature enough to handle it with spiritual understanding and learn to put away childish things like religious fairy tales and false doctrines which do not and cannot apply to yesterday today and forever.
Truth applies to past present and future at all times and does not change in principle.

Ok, perhaps I will rephrase the question then. Do you go along with preterist beliefs ie, that all prophecies of the end times took place in the first century AD?

[Skyangel]

Ok, perhaps I will rephrase the question then. Do you go along with preterist beliefs ie, that all prophecies of the end times took place in the first century AD?

Yes and no. As far as I am aware preterists believe the prophecies already happened and will not happen again.

The way I perceive prophecies in the bible is that they happened in the past and were all fulfilled in Jesus but they are all also still happening today in principle and will also happen in the future in principle. I perceive the bible prophecies as all being past present and future because they are the eternal word of Truth and Life which is eternal and keeps repeating itself in principle in the same way any cycle repeats itself.
Seasons repeat themselves, days repeat themselves, weeks repeat themselves, years repeat themselves, Principles repeat themselves. Life is a cycle. Eternal life is an eternal cycle which keeps repeating itself for ever. No new thing under the sun. History repeats itself in due season, obviously not exactly as in the sense of Jesus being literally born again of a woman, but in principle of Jesus being Truth and Life which is "born again" daily as in all things becoming "new" each day.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.

[Skyangel]

I am posting this here with Murads permission since it relates more to this topic than the one on the other thread.

I specifically asked Murad.....
Do you believe Jesus will physically and literally return to earth one day? If so, what would be the reason for this return according to your religious beliefs?

Murad said.........
"Though this is off-topic and i have answered this before, i will answer it again.
Jesus will return in flesh close to the last hour(as a sign of Judgement day), his mission will be to kill the anti-christ(false messiah) and rule earth as a king, during his rule there will be no war, 100% peace.
All that believe in Jesus and follow him, Jews, Christians, Muslims, will be guaranteed of paradise and will receive mercy from the Al-mighty for their sins."
------------------------------------------------------


To my understanding the Christians who believe Jesus will reign on earth tend to believe He will reign for a literal one thousand years. Do Muslims also believe the same? ie, that Jesus will reign for a literal thousand years?

I would like to ask Muslims and Christians and any other theists who believe in a literal return of Jesus in the literal clouds, If the expected future judgment day is the day Jesus returns to this planet, do you believe all the people who are judged on that day will go to heaven or hell on that day or do they all stay on earth?

If they all go to heaven or hell, who stays on earth for Jesus to rule and reign over? If all go to heaven or hell, how long is Jesus going to reign over no one ?

Judgment day according to the bible was in the past. It was the day Jesus died on the cross. Since that is the case, why do bible believers say it has not happened yet?

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Who was the prince of the world who was cast out if it was not the devil/antichrist?