Can we see God?

[Murad]

Why are there so many contradictions in the bible over this simple, logical question.

Can we see God?

Yes we can see God

1. (Gen. 17:1) – “Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty ; Walk before Me, and be blameless;
2. (Gen. 18:1) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.�
3. (Exodus 6:2-3) – “God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD; 3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.�
4. (Exodus 24:9-11) – “Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.�
5. (Num. 12:6-8) – “He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7"Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses ?"
6. (Acts 7:2), "And he [Stephen] said, 'Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran...'"

Vs.


No we cant see God

1. (Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live !"
2. (John 1:18) – “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.�
3. (John 5:37) – “"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.�
4. (John 6:46) - "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.�
5.

(1 Tim. 6:15-16) – “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.�

[Skyangel]

Then why do Muslims tend to get so confused about the one God in Christianity? Christianity is also based on only one God not on three gods.

Because Paul supports the divinity of Jesus explicitly. Making either 3 Gods or 1 God in 3 entity's.

I think you are just confused with the false doctrine of trinity. Paul never taught such a doctrine. The doctrine is merely an interpretation of Paul's words.

I do not believe in any trinity concept of three gods as one.

Very Good.

So if you dont believe Jesus is God like mainstream Christianity that means you believe parts of the bible to be true and parts to be false, am i correct?
Do you believe Jesus died so that your sins can be forgiven, thus do you believe in Original Sin? If not what purpose does the New Testament give you?

I believe the bible is the Whole Truth which is hidden from those who reject the Truth.
I believe in good and evil which can also be called sin and sinlessness and their origin is God. All things originally came from God so if original means the place of origin, that place is God. The New Testament is a story of a sinless man who set an example of how to walk a righteous and sinless life on earth and set us an example to do likewise. By following the example that Jesus set we can also live a sinless life on this earth in spite of the fact that on outward appearances some people will still accuse us of sinning in the same way they accused Jesus of sinning.

I do not call myself a Christian because that places a label on me and tends to place some preconceived idea in peoples minds about what I am supposed to believe. I refuse to be labelled. I do not agree with all the false doctrines in Christianity either.

Im glad again. So many false doctrines are evident within Christianity, example "Mary the Mother of God".

Obviously those who see Jesus as God also see Mary as the Mother of God since she gave birth to Jesus.

It's all a matter of perception and interpretation.

I agree with you its a matter of interpretation, but the Quran is precise in its wording and it agree's with modern science.

As I said, that is a matter of perception and intepretation and depends on the way you compare things.

There is no such thing as any true religion in this world, not Islam and not Christianity and not any other man made religion which includes a pile of religious laws and rituals which keep people occupied trying to appease or please their invisible God.

That is your personal opinion. There is and there can only be 1 true religion.
The 4 gospels in the NT can be considered man made, but the Torah and Quran are the direct words of God.

Really? I thought the Quran was the direct words of Mohammed and the Torah are believed to be written by Moses.? All scripture in the bible is claimed to be inspired by God and many Christians will claim the same as you claim which is that the bible is the direct word of God. Christians can obviously find many flaws and faults in the Quran the same as any Muslim can find flaws and faults in the bible. To one standing on the outside looking in, it looks like two children saying "my daddy is better than your daddy" Or "My book of scriptures is correct and yours is wrong" Both are saying the same thing and both believe their own words and both look pretty immature to me. Its like saying "My team is best and unless you are on my team, you are on the losing team". All religions say the same thing. " My group is right and everyone elses is wrong". That's the truth of the matter and the same attitude of all religions of the world.

Whatever we do to people, we do it to God.

I couldnt agree with you more, it sounds like you have studied Islam, am i right?

O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you not know that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink whin You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me.

No, I have not studied Islam other than merely superfically. I have read the Quran but the bible says the same thing anyway and I have studied the bible for over 40 years.

The parable you give from the Hadith can be found in Mathew 25:31-46

[Murad]

By following the example that Jesus set we can also live a sinless life on this earth in spite of the fact that on outward appearances some people will still accuse us of sinning in the same way they accused Jesus of sinning.

There hasn't been 1 son of Adam that hasn't sinned atleast once, what makes Jesus so special that he doesn't sin and all the other prophets and messengers sin?

Obviously those who see Jesus as God also see Mary as the Mother of God since she gave birth to Jesus.

Yes and thus they also worship Mary

Really? I thought the Quran was the direct words of Mohammed and the Torah are believed to be written by Moses.? All scripture in the bible is claimed to be inspired by God and many Christians will claim the same as you claim which is that the bible is the direct word of God. Christians can obviously find many flaws and faults in the Quran the same as any Muslim can find flaws and faults in the bible. To one standing on the outside looking in, it looks like two children saying "my daddy is better than your daddy" Or "My book of scriptures is correct and yours is wrong" Both are saying the same thing and both believe their own words and both look pretty immature to me. Its like saying "My team is best and unless you are on my team, you are on the losing team". All religions say the same thing. " My group is right and everyone elses is wrong". That's the truth of the matter and the same attitude of all religions of the world.

Thats not what i was trying to say.
The Gospel's are the experiences of certain people writing from a 'historic' perspective. I believe numerous parts of the Bible to be Gods word(inspired) such as Psalms and parts of Mark etc... But i could never believe the Bible to be the whole truth like you do.
We believe the Torah is directly from Moses the same way the Quran is directly from Muhammad. (peace be upon them both.)

[Skyangel]

By following the example that Jesus set we can also live a sinless life on this earth in spite of the fact that on outward appearances some people will still accuse us of sinning in the same way they accused Jesus of sinning.

There hasn't been 1 son of Adam that hasn't sinned at least once, what makes Jesus so special that he doesn't sin and all the other prophets and messengers sin?

The fact that Jesus is not a son of Adam. If you think He is a son of Adam, who is His father? Do you have some proof of his father in some geneologies?

Obviously those who see Jesus as God also see Mary as the Mother of God since she gave birth to Jesus.

Yes and thus they also worship Mary

Yes they do. Catholics like to worship all their gods and saints as well. They pray to all of them. They are a very idolatrous religion.

Really? I thought the Quran was the direct words of Mohammed and the Torah are believed to be written by Moses.? All scripture in the bible is claimed to be inspired by God and many Christians will claim the same as you claim which is that the bible is the direct word of God. Christians can obviously find many flaws and faults in the Quran the same as any Muslim can find flaws and faults in the bible. To one standing on the outside looking in, it looks like two children saying "my daddy is better than your daddy" Or "My book of scriptures is correct and yours is wrong" Both are saying the same thing and both believe their own words and both look pretty immature to me. Its like saying "My team is best and unless you are on my team, you are on the losing team". All religions say the same thing. " My group is right and everyone elses is wrong". That's the truth of the matter and the same attitude of all religions of the world.

Thats not what i was trying to say.

That's what it comes across like.

The Gospel's are the experiences of certain people writing from a 'historic' perspective. I believe numerous parts of the Bible to be Gods word(inspired) such as Psalms and parts of Mark etc... But i could never believe the Bible to be the whole truth like you do.
We believe the Torah is directly from Moses the same way the Quran is directly from Muhammad. (peace be upon them both.)

I cannot see the Quran as the direct words from God like you do either. Please see http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=14576 and please explain the contradiction to me.

At least the bible does not contradict the Torah like the Quran does.

[Murad]

The fact that Jesus is not a son of Adam. If you think He is a son of Adam, who is His father? Do you have some proof of his father in some geneologies?

Jesus does not have a father, we know this for a fact.
That does not change the fact that Mary is a child of Adam and Eve.

I cannot see the Quran as the direct words from God like you do either. Please see http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=14576 and please explain the contradiction to me.

Ok, lets continue our conversation there, no point of putting this thread off-topic.

At least the bible does not contradict the Torah like the Quran does.

The two books contradict each other numerous times. You probably overlook them.


“And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot� (Deuteronomy Ch. 19:Vs. 21)
‘For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you’
(Matthew 6:14)

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
John 1:1 “the Word was God.�

[Skyangel]

The fact that Jesus is not a son of Adam. If you think He is a son of Adam, who is His father? Do you have some proof of his father in some geneologies?

Jesus does not have a father, we know this for a fact.
That does not change the fact that Mary is a child of Adam and Eve.

All people have a father. Who made Mary pregnant according to your beliefs?
Was it not Allah ? Do you believe Jesus came from God/Allah?

At least the bible does not contradict the Torah like the Quran does.

The two books contradict each other numerous times. You probably overlook them.

I don't overlook anything. I can reconcile any apparent contradictions between the Torah and the rest of the bible.

[Murad]

All people have a father. Who made Mary pregnant according to your beliefs?
Was it not Allah ? Do you believe Jesus came from God/Allah?

We muslims believe the Word of Allah impregnated Jesus "Be!"

[Skyangel]

All people have a father. Who made Mary pregnant according to your beliefs?
Was it not Allah ? Do you believe Jesus came from God/Allah?

We muslims believe the Word of Allah impregnated Jesus "Be!"

Don't you mean impregnated Mary?

Since that is the case, that makes God the Father of Jesus, does it not?
Jesus is a miracle from birth. He is not like any other prophet before or after him who has a human being as a physical father. Jesus is the greatest prophet of all. He is the Word of God made flesh.

[Murad]

All people have a father. Who made Mary pregnant according to your beliefs?
Was it not Allah ? Do you believe Jesus came from God/Allah?

We muslims believe the Word of Allah impregnated Jesus "Be!"

Don't you mean impregnated Mary?

Since that is the case, that makes God the Father of Jesus, does it not?
Jesus is a miracle from birth.

Woops typo, yes impregnated Mary
Yes it is a miracle birth, it shows the true greatness of Jesus

No it does not make God the Father of Jesus.
God created Adam the same way. "Be!"
God created Light the same way. "Be!"
God created the Sun, Earth, Heavens the same way. "Be!"

Are you telling me God is the literal Father of Light and the Earth and Adam?

He is not like any other prophet before or after him who has a human being as a physical father. Jesus is the greatest prophet of all. He is the Word of God made flesh.

Yes he is not like any other prophet, he is the only 'Messiah'.
I personally do not make elevate 1 prophet over the other, i see them all equal and that they all have the same purpose. Jesus was blessed from the day he was born and till the day he will be resurrected again(day of Judgement). He is undoubtly one of the greatest prophets in 'status'

[Skyangel]

Woops typo, yes impregnated Mary
Yes it is a miracle birth, it shows the true greatness of Jesus

No it does not make God the Father of Jesus.
God created Adam the same way. "Be!"
God created Light the same way. "Be!"
God created the Sun, Earth, Heavens the same way. "Be!"

Are you telling me God is the literal Father of Light and the Earth and Adam?

Yes. God is the Father of all physical things as well as the Father of all spiritual things. He is the creator of all. He created all things by His word and caused the Word to become flesh by saying " Let there be" or just "Be" as you like to put it, and it was and is and is to come. God is all, He the tree which creates another tree, He is the plant which creates another plant, He is the man which creates another man. He is the animal which creates another animal. He keeps reproducing himself through His own word and principles of Life. Life reproduces itself continually. God is life reproducing itself.

He is not like any other prophet before or after him who has a human being as a physical father. Jesus is the greatest prophet of all. He is the Word of God made flesh.

Yes he is not like any other prophet, he is the only 'Messiah'.
I personally do not make elevate 1 prophet over the other, i see them all equal and that they all have the same purpose. Jesus was blessed from the day he was born and till the day he will be resurrected again(day of Judgement). He is undoubtly one of the greatest prophets in 'status'

If He is the only Messiah how can He be on equal standing with all other prophets? are they all Messiahs?
Jesus is already resurrected. Do you think He is dead?

Did you miss the story of His resurrection or just don't believe it? Acts 10:36-43

Jesus lives in me and I live in Him. We are in the Father and the Father is in us. We are one.

[Murad]

Yes. God is the Father of all physical things

Oh dear, is my laptop the Son of God? /sarcasm

He is the creator of all.

It depends what your definition by "All" is.
Take my laptop for example, God did not create it, but he gave man the brain, and he gave man the elements and resources to produce it, so indirectly God did create all.

If He is the only Messiah how can He be on equal standing with all other prophets? are they all Messiahs?

There is only 1 Messiah and that is Jesus.
He is not equal in the sense of his status, but he is equal in the sense of his purpose.

Jesus is already resurrected. Do you think He is dead?

Jesus was never resurrected, that is a fairytale, no one saw Jesus being resurrected and they assumed he was resurrected because they saw him alive after the alleged crucification.
Jesus was raised into heaven and he will return near the last hour to fight the anti-christ.

They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157)