Sufferening

[Ravenstorm]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

[McCulloch]

I missed the part in the Bible where this is explicitly stated. Kindly provide a reference.

How about Jeremiah 32:35?

They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin

Can you demonstrate that this passage is not hyperbole? Otherwise, it portrays the god not only as not being omniscient but being particularly stupid. Not only did the god not know this in advance but he did not even foresee the possibility of this event?

[KillerOfTheSun]

"Can God not still be omnipotent if He chooses to grant men free will, vowing to Himself that he will not violate the law He set in place, even though He could in theory do so?"

Vowing to itself to " not remmeber" the actions which are known to it, won't change the fact it is still omnicient.


"If we were all automatons incapable of doing anything, and aware of being slaves in our own bodies - would that not be hell? A perfect world indeed."

We have free will and we don't know the actions of events that happen in the future.There is no eternal omnicient being required here.Hell is for those that need it to exist.


"I'm not taking sides on this. There are plenty of idle people on this world. It's not worth labeling an entire group as superior or inferior at accomplishing things because they believe in [insert belief here]. I know of many Christians whose faith in God inspired them to do great things. Prayer is not a substitute for action -- neither is the feeling of good will towards another. For me, prayer helps me focus and calm down. I wouldn't be as capable or as excited to do things were it not for prayer."


For you maybe.But christans do pray for materialisic absurdities nevertheless.Such as new car,New job,new wife,or many wives for that matter.But prayer is seen different for you.Im saying prayer in that regard which i stated is quite fruitless since they are asking a god to intervene with it's "divine" plan for the earth.


"I'm sure a lot of people hope for miracles in their lives, but there's nothing wrong with a positive hope to keep you going is there?"

No and im all for those who look forward to a positive " hope ". But some peopels hopes are other peoples " hopelessness ". There are those that wish for the rapture and tribulation to happen.they " hope " this happens die to their version of christianity.There are those that " hope " gay marrigaes never materlize due to their version of christianity.You get what i mean?

"Im not a fan of any of those pastors or their mega churches. I'm sure money organizations like these, or in any organization, has a chance of being mis-used -- probably more-so with these guys. But still, how does this burden of "responsibility for not giving enough" fall only upon the Christians of the world?"

Christans make up for the biggest theistic populace in the world.With 2.1 billion members if im not mistaken maybe a couple of 100 thousand off.But mega churches like the ones i pointed out make billions annually.Same with the Vatican.Which is probably valued at much higher.They could all give those billions to needy children,homeless etc right here in the United States.Rather than follow this teaching:

Matthew 19:21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." -- King James Version


"I'm sure you could. But certain Biblical authors' understandings of natural disasters and death and destruction doesn't necessarily reflect God's actual attitude towards men."

You claim to know what "god's" actual attitude is? Care to explain further?How would you know that much?


"Nothing would make God's existence valid for you, unless the sun turns into a giant donut. I don't believe in a magic God that grants wishes and fixes every human error and ailment. I don't think God is evil for allowing evil to exist. Evil (or bad things) happen in most cases because of choices that people make. However this free will is necessary for people to actually love and do good of their own want and desire - not by divine force. The price of this free-will, which is granted to everyone, is sadly, the abuse of such - which contributes to pain and suffering in this world."

I don't need the sun to turn into a policeman's favorite pastime treat.You may not believe in a god that procures magic from its essence but millions do.If god created evil with the full intent on knowing what evil will do to mankind then by that very premise god is indeed evil.Peoples choices don't always necessitate evil coming from their actiosn but in most cases evil to happen to those who do not produce such.If god " knew " about the actions of free will ( which you say it does not ) then allowed to create such why complain about what it supposedly has created with full knwoledge and intent it brings? Is this god you believe this " lacking " in itself?


"As a side note... I think you're making this into an "us versus them" argument -- Theist versus Atheist/Agnostic. It's kinda drifting the topic, since this is about human suffering not the "superiority/inferiority" of believers/non-believers."

Agreed. We will stick to topic. Apologies to the OP and Moderators.

[EduChris]

...Can you demonstrate that this passage is not hyperbole?...

There may be an element of hyperbole there, but that doesn't alter the point that God wasn't originally expecting that people would act out such horrid possibilities.

[Cathar1950]

I missed the part in the Bible where this is explicitly stated. Kindly provide a reference.

How about Jeremiah 32:35?

They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin

Can you demonstrate that this passage is not hyperbole? Otherwise, it portrays the god not only as not being omniscient but being particularly stupid. Not only did the god not know this in advance but he did not even foresee the possibility of this event?

It is saying God never saw that one coming.

Of course this passage shows they were sacrificing their children and Ezek 20:25-26 admits God did command them. Supposedly God knew what he was doing while those doing the sacrifices didn't.
It seems they were doing it all along until the exile and from the protests the practice raised its ugly head along with the Royal Ideology.

[Darias]

"Can God not still be omnipotent if He chooses to grant men free will, vowing to Himself that he will not violate the law He set in place, even though He could in theory do so?"

Vowing to itself to " not remmeber" the actions which are known to it, won't change the fact it is still omnicient.

1. I did not say that God must be unaware of mankind's actions in order to allow free will to exist. Likewise, I can choose to forgive someone, but that doesn't mean I will forget what they did.

And I am not saying that God is limiting himself - but simply choosing. I am capable of many things, evil and good. No, I'm not all powerful. I don't control everything - but a number of things are under my direct influence. I still choose how I behave. Just because I do have some limited influence, doesn't mean I want to control everything and everyone I am capable of affecting - nor would it necessarily mean I am evil or good.

For example, If I choose to pass by a motorist who's car has broken down on the side of the road - would I be evil? That person could have been someone I could have assisted. My heart might go out to him, I might feel bad for him, but am I evil for not helping him? No.

So why do people conclude this similar matter on a much larger scale? "If God exists, He must be all-powerful - If He is all powerful, He must control everything directly - And evil exists when He has the power to stop it ~ ergo God is evil, assuming He exists." This seems like binary logic to me.

"If we were all automatons incapable of doing anything, and aware of being slaves in our own bodies - would that not be hell? A perfect world indeed."

We have free will and we don't know the actions of events that happen in the future.There is no eternal omnicient being required here.Hell is for those that need it to exist.

2. Requirement is not a prerequisite for existence. The sentient human species is not a requirement for the existence of the Universe(Multiverse?), but we exist nevertheless.

I think we can both agree on this (from different perspectives) when I say:
Hell is the absence of God

I'm speaking in spiritual terms. For me, existing in any dimension forever apart from God, or what some Greek philosopher's considered "the embodiment of love", And being completely aware of that empty hopelessness - would be my ultimate version of hell. I would care less about the "lava."

Since you believe "if God existed then the world wouldn't suffer," you could also agree with the above statement.

"I'm not taking sides on this. There are plenty of idle people on this world. It's not worth labeling an entire group as superior or inferior at accomplishing things because they believe in [insert belief here]. I know of many Christians whose faith in God inspired them to do great things. Prayer is not a substitute for action -- neither is the feeling of good will towards another. For me, prayer helps me focus and calm down. I wouldn't be as capable or as excited to do things were it not for prayer."

For you maybe.But christans do pray for materialisic absurdities nevertheless.Such as new car,New job,new wife,or many wives for that matter.But prayer is seen different for you.Im saying prayer in that regard which i stated is quite fruitless since they are asking a god to intervene with it's "divine" plan for the earth.

3. Keep in mind that I still consider myself a theist - or better put "theist-esque." I believe that God still has an influence on people, without being a divine "Santa Clause." Human beings have influence, directly and indirectly on others - our actions, behavior, words, and ideas. I believe that God can and does influence, rather, inspire people to do things (And yes, certain concepts of God inspire "followers" to do bad things too - I won't deny that). One's relationship with the Divine might inspire him to do some good, which will affect others positively. This is where the concept of "being Christ's hands and feet" come from.

Let me explain how this whole process possibly could work, assuming God exists. For example, if a believer wants to find a new mate, they could pray about it(voice their hopes and desires to a spiritual Being that cares). Say there is another believer, or even an unbeliever God could inspire "directly or indirectly" communicating to the spirit of people, or to the mind, or whatever -- it is possible, that God could "bring" both of them together by indirectly affecting their motivation to seek out each other for companionship. There might not be a specific person in mind, it could be random - God's foresight of the future doesn't mean personal choices aren't made along the way.

I'm just saying, that God can intercede (help) without manipulating people or controlling their actions -- much like the way the ideas and words of America's Founding Fathers inspire me to support equality for all people.

"I'm sure a lot of people hope for miracles in their lives, but there's nothing wrong with a positive hope to keep you going is there?"

No and im all for those who look forward to a positive " hope ". But some peopels hopes are other peoples " hopelessness ". There are those that wish for the rapture and tribulation to happen.they " hope " this happens die to their version of christianity.There are those that " hope " gay marrigaes never materlize due to their version of christianity.You get what i mean?

4. I'm talking about positive thinking and inspiration to keep pressing forward no matter how dreary things may seem presently - reasonable optimism. I am not talking about the subjective idealism of various Christians. If we wish to debate ideals, I'm sure there are some Atheists who hope religion will be outlawed - but that would be unfair as well.

"Im not a fan of any of those pastors or their mega churches. I'm sure money organizations like these, or in any organization, has a chance of being mis-used -- probably more-so with these guys. But still, how does this burden of "responsibility for not giving enough" fall only upon the Christians of the world?"

Christans make up for the biggest theistic populace in the world.With 2.1 billion members if im not mistaken maybe a couple of 100 thousand off.But mega churches like the ones i pointed out make billions annually.Same with the Vatican.Which is probably valued at much higher.They could all give those billions to needy children,homeless etc right here in the United States.Rather than follow this teaching:

Matthew 19:21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." -- King James Version

5. We could all give more. I'm not going to say that all religious institutions abuse the donation of money -- I've heard of a few that do. But you are right, we could be giving more.

"I'm sure you could. But certain Biblical authors' understandings of natural disasters and death and destruction doesn't necessarily reflect God's actual attitude towards men."

You claim to know what "god's" actual attitude is? Care to explain further?How would you know that much?

6. You first made the claim about the nature of God by labeling him evil - if He exists, given our current situation in the universe.

But I don't believe in a malevolent god, as ancient cultures often did. I do know that the observance of phenomenon and disasters do cause some people to attribute such to "acts of God." Keeping that in mind, I can understand why people could think God is not good. However, natural burps of nature are just that - natural. The whether is not conscious; it just happens. God is not evil for letting it happen. You can't have a weather system without powerful and dangerous weather. Sadly, people die sometimes, but that is the nature of the universe we live in. Life would be rough if the atmosphere didn't recycle itself -- and if plate tectonics didn't occur, our planet would be dead. None of this really dulls the bitterness of tragedy. And I'm not trying to.

I don't believe in the "Health, Wealth, and Prosperity doctrine" -- which suggests that blessed people get stuff, and non-believers struggle in poverty. This just isn't the case. I say that to say that I don't attribute Gods goodness (to me) because of the material things I have. I believe God is good because of His mercy and love for me, neither of which I deserve.

There is no logical, beneficial, or healthy reason to believe in an evil God that hates.

Think about it, if God exists, would it not be logical to assume his infinite intelligence would make Him Benevolent by nature? After all, violence and evil is often the cause of ignorance.

"Nothing would make God's existence valid for you, unless the sun turns into a giant donut. I don't believe in a magic God that grants wishes and fixes every human error and ailment. I don't think God is evil for allowing evil to exist. Evil (or bad things) happen in most cases because of choices that people make. However this free will is necessary for people to actually love and do good of their own want and desire - not by divine force. The price of this free-will, which is granted to everyone, is sadly, the abuse of such - which contributes to pain and suffering in this world."

I don't need the sun to turn into a policeman's favorite pastime treat.You may not believe in a god that procures magic from its essence but millions do.If god created evil with the full intent on knowing what evil will do to mankind then by that very premise god is indeed evil.Peoples choices don't always necessitate evil coming from their actiosn but in most cases evil to happen to those who do not produce such.If god " knew " about the actions of free will ( which you say it does not ) then allowed to create such why complain about what it supposedly has created with full knwoledge and intent it brings? Is this god you believe this " lacking " in itself?

7. God didn't create evil. Evil is a bi-product of free will. You can't have free-will without the ability to do wrong. Add our human-nature to the mix and that makes for a world with suffering.

I never said God was ignorant of the consequences of granting us free-will.

But imagine how unjust the world might be without free-will? If we were slaves to our instincts and urges - like other animals.

There are only but so many ways we can exist logically - Claiming that a benevolent God can only exist in an idealistic/perfect universe is not true. God would not be good if he made us all his slaves.

[KillerOfTheSun]

"I did not say that God must be unaware of mankind's actions in order to allow free will to exist. Likewise, I can choose to forgive someone, but that doesn't mean I will forget what they did."


You dont have omniscience,thus the comparison fails.If god is omniscient then god knows all that will happen.

"And I am not saying that God is limiting himself - but simply choosing. I am capable of many things, evil and good. No, I'm not all powerful. I don't control everything - but a number of things are under my direct influence. I still choose how I behave. Just because I do have some limited influence, doesn't mean I want to control everything and everyone I am capable of affecting - nor would it necessarily mean I am evil or good."


God cannot choose.Whatever god has created it is perfect since god is total endless perfection is it not? But again you compare yourself to an eternal all knwong being who cant forget or choose anything.


"For example, If I choose to pass by a motorist who's car has broken down on the side of the road - would I be evil? That person could have been someone I could have assisted. My heart might go out to him, I might feel bad for him, but am I evil for not helping him? No.

So why do people conclude this similar matter on a much larger scale? "If God exists, He must be all-powerful - If He is all powerful, He must control everything directly - And evil exists when He has the power to stop it ~ ergo God is evil, assuming He exists." This seems like binary logic to me."


The analogy is terrible.You are comparing passing by a motorist with god creating human suffering and worldy evil.Hardly a comparison made to be taken seriously.



"2. Requirement is not a prerequisite for existence. The sentient human species is not a requirement for the existence of the Universe(Multiverse?), but we exist nevertheless."

We exist and therein lies no reason to apply our exisistence to unfounded claims of god.

"I think we can both agree on this (from different perspectives) when I say:
Hell is the absence of God

I'm speaking in spiritual terms. For me, existing in any dimension forever apart from God, or what some Greek philosopher's considered "the embodiment of love", And being completely aware of that empty hopelessness - would be my ultimate version of hell. I would care less about the "lava."
Since you believe "if God existed then the world wouldn't suffer," you could also agree with the above statement."


I don't agree with you on hell,no such place empirically exsists.But yes i understand the jist of what you are saying.But your version requires that god needs the condemned soul to KNOW their erronous position forever.Making god a sadist in this scenario.

"3. Keep in mind that I still consider myself a theist - or better put "theistesque." I believe that God still has an influence on people, without being a divine "Santa Clause." Human beings have influence, directly and indirectly on others - our actions, behavior, words, and ideas. I believe that God can and does influence, rather, inspire people to do things (And yes, certain concepts of God inspire "followers" to do bad things too - I won't deny that). One's relationship with the Divine might inspire him to do some good, which will affect others positively. This is where the concept of "being Christ's hands and feet" come from."


I have no quarrel with you being a god believer.I just find it quite interesting that people claim god to exist with many conflciting god beliefs that man has created for themselves since milennia.

"Let me explain how this whole process possibly could work, assuming God exists. For example, if a believer wants to find a new mate, they could pray about it(voice their hopes and desires to a spiritual Being that cares). Say there is another believer, or even an unbeliever God could inspire "directly or indirectly" communicating to the spirit of people, or to the mind, or whatever -- it is possible, that God could "bring" both of them together by indirectly affecting their motivation to seek out each other for companionship. There might not be a specific person in mind, it could be random - God's foresight of the future doesn't mean personal choices aren't made along the way."


But you couldnt know this directly in anyway.Your assuming this is a premise.What evidence would you have that this could be so without using a theological position.By you saying god inspires would this also be considered intefering with free will?

"I'm just saying, that God can intercede (help) without manipulating people or controlling their actions -- much like the way the ideas and words of America's Founding Fathers inspire me to support equality for all people."

But god is manipulating their actions according to your above post.By intertwing people by happenstance.


"4. I'm talking about positive thinking and inspiration to keep pressing forward no matter how dreary things may seem presently - reasonable optimism. I am not talking about the subjective idealism of various Christians. If we wish to debate ideals, I'm sure there are some Atheists who hope religion will be outlawed - but that would be unfair as well."


But people can inspire to do good and think positive without the need for religion.Im for the outlawing of religion.But im also a realist knowing religion will be here long after i die.So what i feel is irrelevant.


"5. We could all give more. I'm not going to say that all religious institutions abuse the donation of money -- I've heard of a few that do. But you are right, we could be giving more."


We are in total agreement here.


"6. You first made the claim about the nature of God by labeling him evil - if He exists, given our current situation in the universe."

I only labeled god evil if it exists.It may not be toitally evil but it has evil traits in it.Certain gods im talking about.Such as Allah or Yahweh.I can show evil actions done or supported by them in numerous scripture.

"But I don't believe in a malevolent god, as ancient cultures often did. I do know that the observance of phenomenon and disasters do cause some people to attribute such to "acts of God." Keeping that in mind, I can understand why people could think God is not good. However, natural burps of nature are just that - natural. The whether is not conscious; it just happens. God is not evil for letting it happen. You can't have a weather system without powerful and dangerous weather. Sadly, people die sometimes, but that is the nature of the universe we live in. Life would be rough if the atmosphere didn't recycle itself -- and if plate tectonics didn't occur, our planet would be dead. None of this really dulls the bitterness of tragedy. And I'm not trying to."


If you believe in a god that created evil with the full knowledge of what that evil wil do to its supposed greatest creation and does nothing to impede that evil.Than by that admission god is either indiffernet to its creation of truly one of evil.

"I don't believe in the "Health, Wealth, and Prosperity doctrine" -- which suggests that blessed people get stuff, and non-believers struggle in poverty. This just isn't the case. I say that to say that I don't attribute Gods goodness (to me) because of the material things I have. I believe God is good because of His mercy and love for me, neither of which I deserve."

Im quite interested in why you don't deserve to be loved by this god you claim is real.Do you pertain this application to say....your parents?

"There is no logical, beneficial, or healthy reason to believe in an evil God that hates.

Think about it, if God exists, would it not be logical to assume his infinite intelligence would make Him Benevolent by nature? After all, violence and evil is often the cause of ignorance."


No violence and evil is caused by mankinds ignorance to certain other fellow humans or there own indulgences.God doesn't need apply here.But there are christians and muslims who live very applicable and healthy lives and yet they believe in quite a primitively hateful god.



"God didn't create evil. Evil is a bi-product of free will. You can't have free-will without the ability to do wrong. Add our human-nature to the mix and that makes for a world with suffering."

Either god created everything or nothing.If god created man knowing what made would do then god created evil by this very premise.

"I never said God was ignorant of the consequences of granting us free-will.

But imagine how unjust the world might be without free-will? If we were slaves to our instincts and urges - like other animals.

There are only but so many ways we can exist logically - Claiming that a benevolent God can only exist in an idealistic/perfect universe is not true. God would not be good if he made us all his slaves.[/quote]"



Again i will apply two sceanrios:

1. God creating us with the notion of free will and condemning those who failed to realize a god existsing or showing total lack of understanding it exists and thus total and eternal seperation of god with full knowledge of your eternal dark oblivion.

2. God making everyone autonomous beings with no free will and thus everyone has total belief in this one god and when they die they forever live in a heaven with eternal praise for this god.


Either scenario is quite unimaginably absent of Blissful endevours.

[justifyothers]

There is no evidence the deity exists or if it does, it appears not to be able to interact physically in our world. The idea the deity could intervene to prevent suffering, but chooses not to, is just too unpleasant to contemplate.

Just thought I should point out for future reference that in the theology subforum the existence of a deity can be assumed true because the bible is considered authoritative.

It would only be authoritative to Christians, Jews would not find the NT authoritative.
It should only be authoritative on its context. What do you do when it has more then one position?

I tend to think there is another position on suffering where God sufferers with us as God would also share our joys or satisfactions. Suffering tells us something is wrong or is a indicator that someone is hurt. Maybe it comes with the ability to experience joy or satisfaction. It binds us as humans and we can grow to appreciate other creatures.

I am just reading through this thread, but I had to stop here. I think this also: that God is part of all creation- in everything, and experiences what we do. Also, I think He may want us to end most suffering. Seeing that all but natural diasters is caused by mankind.

[justifyothers]

Yes, claiming that the pain you feel when you cut yourself somehow justifies the agony, both physically and emotionally, of a mother watching her child die of hunger (a child dies of hunger on this planet every 5 seconds), or the horror of some child watching their mother raped and murdered (as happened often during the JanJaweed reign of terror), simply does not add up to a satisfying:

"Aw, thanks God for all this pain we can feel - otherwise, how would we know if we were alive?!?!"

There is absolutely no reason for it. If you need to have the sense of being alive, or need starvation, rape and murder, etc. as a source of valor and bravery (a la Swinbourne's argument), then I would suggest perhaps you have a skewed sense of what being alive is. After all, I feel alive, and am happy to be alive, but I don't need to see 50 people around me hacked to death to understand it, and I doubt the people in Darfur or Chechnya need that too.

These awful sufferings you have listed are caused by man. Why won't man end the suffering? We know how!

[justifyothers]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

Such that His children/sheep will know that tragedies will happen if they choose to stay outside of His kingdom. Such that His children/sheep will return to His Kingdom when called.

But if your god is all knowing it certainly would have known that billions would " choose " to stay outside the kingdom. Ths wouldn't it have been more " compassionate " to not have created beings that would ultimately suffer for a myraid of reasons for not believing or straying away?

This view is only sensible if you believe in hell. Do you?

[justifyothers]

lets say for arguements sake that a god did exist.Wouldn't it be helpful if god simply just rid the world of say....child starvation.All at once.Instead of humans slowly trying to alliviate the problem which they would never stop all at once.

Yes, it would be simple if it is possible.

However, God has given us this earth to live in and be responsible for. With your logic, aren't WE being lazy & neglectful? Wanting someone else to come in and fix the problem, so we don't have to get our hands dirty?

What would we then do? Sit back, get fat and marvel at how easy God has made life for us? All we have to do is sit around and watch Him fix everything - yeah!