Sufferening

[Ravenstorm]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

[EduChris]

...J. Barton Payne’s Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy lists 1,239 prophecies in the Old Testament and 578 prophecies in the New Testament, for a total of 1,817. These encompass 8,352 verses.Are you stating that all of these prophecies are for " a change of heart" ?..

I am not familiar with Payne's work (published some 30 years ago). I do know that most fundamentalists and some evangelical Christians hold much different views on prophecy than do the Catholic, the Orthodox, and the Mainline Protestants. You appear to be basing your comments on the popular level "American fundamentalist" views, rather than on the views of the majority of Christians in the world.

...in your assertions here you state god knows what god will do but not man's.Please elaborate on how an eternal perfect omniscient being can know everything but a the future events of a finite creation it made.Because that is an impossibility.

If God decided to create a world in which free agents could make genuinely free choices that are not preordained for them, then t's not impossible at all to assume that God doesn't know how I will eventually decide every single choice I will ever make. But it is possible for God to know what all of my possible options will be at every moment. And in that case, it would be possible for God to know how he will respond to whichever of those finite options I happen to choose.

[Darias]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

I'm going to answer this question with a quote:

“Sometimes I would like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it.�

“Well, why don’t you ask Him?�

“Because I’m afraid He would ask me the same question.�

http://wearethatfamily.com/2010/03/ques ... id-to-ask/

[KillerOfTheSun]

I am not familiar with Payne's work (published some 30 years ago). I do know that most fundamentalists and some evangelical Christians hold much different views on prophecy than do the Catholic, the Orthodox, and the Mainline Protestants. You appear to be basing your comments on the popular level "American fundamentalist" views, rather than on the views of the majority of Christians in the world.


It matters not.Every christian denomination claims to have the "correct" version.Im basing it on just one of the many.Yours is no more verifiable as a Calvanists or a Mormons.You all make claims based upon your religion just wearing different "hats" so to speak.


If God decided to create a world in which free agents could make genuinely free choices that are not preordained for them, then t's not impossible at all to assume that God doesn't know how I will eventually decide every single choice I will ever make. But it is possible for God to know what all of my possible options will be at every moment. And in that case, it would be possible for God to know how he will respond to whichever of those finite options I happen to choose.


You state " it would be possible for god to know how he will respond to whichever of those finate options i happen to choose."

Either god knows all or god doesnt know all.There is no in between.Either god is all knowing or god is not.

[KillerOfTheSun]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

I'm going to answer this question with a quote:

“Sometimes I would like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it.�

“Well, why don’t you ask Him?�

“Because I’m afraid He would ask me the same question.�

http://wearethatfamily.com/2010/03/ques ... id-to-ask/

But since god hasn't spoken back to anyone stating the questions above..the statements will show that god either doesn't exist or approves of such.

[Darias]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

I'm going to answer this question with a quote:

“Sometimes I would like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it.�

“Well, why don’t you ask Him?�

“Because I’m afraid He would ask me the same question.�

http://wearethatfamily.com/2010/03/ques ... id-to-ask/

But since god hasn't spoken back to anyone stating the questions above..the statements will show that god either doesn't exist or approves of such.

Don't you think you are over-analyzing just a bit?


It's just a quote. The point of the quote is to stir people to make the world better instead of them asking God to do magic tricks, violating natural laws in order to make the world perfect.

[KillerOfTheSun]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

I'm going to answer this question with a quote:

“Sometimes I would like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it.�

“Well, why don’t you ask Him?�

“Because I’m afraid He would ask me the same question.�

http://wearethatfamily.com/2010/03/ques ... id-to-ask/

But since god hasn't spoken back to anyone stating the questions above..the statements will show that god either doesn't exist or approves of such.

Don't you think you are over-analyzing just a bit?


It's just a quote. The point of the quote is to stir people to make the world better instead of them asking God to do magic tricks, violating natural laws in order to make the world perfect.

I could be ...but lets say for arguements sake that a god did exist.Wouldn't it be helpful if god simply just rid the world of say....child starvation.All at once.Instead of humans slowly trying to alliviate the problem which they would never stop all at once.

[Darias]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

I'm going to answer this question with a quote:

“Sometimes I would like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it.�

“Well, why don’t you ask Him?�

“Because I’m afraid He would ask me the same question.�

http://wearethatfamily.com/2010/03/ques ... id-to-ask/

But since god hasn't spoken back to anyone stating the questions above..the statements will show that god either doesn't exist or approves of such.

Don't you think you are over-analyzing just a bit?


It's just a quote. The point of the quote is to stir people to make the world better instead of them asking God to do magic tricks, violating natural laws in order to make the world perfect.

I could be ...but lets say for arguements sake that a god did exist.Wouldn't it be helpful if god simply just rid the world of say....child starvation.All at once.Instead of humans slowly trying to alliviate the problem which they would never stop all at once.

It would be helpful, but God is not a genie in a bottle. Our ancestors impoverished certain areas of the world and our kids are suffering for it. God didn't stop the evil of the Holocaust because of the choices of a few elite, and God probably won't feed all the starving children tonight.

I would prefer it if everyone could have enough to eat, but if I were God, and everyone depended on me to fulfill their every wish and need - I don't know if I could do that.

We'd all just wait around for the next miracle to make our mistakes go away.

This isn't a perfect world. The reality is, I don't know or understand God's reasoning. I'm not God, so I can't answer for Him. All I can do, is do my best to give and help others in need. If everyone helped out their neighbor, we wouldn't be in this situation talking about this issue.

I'm sure God gets no joy out of the suffering people go through - but it's not His fault.

Is it your fault if a store is robbed and the cashier is killed because you didn't jump in front of the bullet?

The fact is, there is only so much God can do - without violating free will and natural law.

[KillerOfTheSun]

"It would be helpful, but God is not a genie in a bottle. Our ancestors impoverished certain areas of the world and our kids are suffering for it. God didn't stop the evil of the Holocaust because of the choices of a few elite, and God probably won't feed all the starving children tonight."


This reminds me of an Epicurus quotation:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?�




"I would prefer it if everyone could have enough to eat, but if I were God, and everyone depended on me to fulfill their every wish and need - I don't know if I could do that."

It is the believers who pray to god for everything.Those who do not rely on a diety get things done.

"We'd all just wait around for the next miracle to make our mistakes go away."

As i suggested.Believers in a god do such that. 1.1 billion agnostics/atheists/secularists do not.

"This isn't a perfect world. The reality is, I don't know or understand God's reasoning. I'm not God, so I can't answer for Him. All I can do, is do my best to give and help others in need. If everyone helped out their neighbor, we wouldn't be in this situation talking about this issue."

True if everyone did help put we could eliminate a lot of problems but thats not the case.Mega churches owned by such christian " luminaries " like Benny Hinn,Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Copeland whom rake in billions just between them three alone sure could help out many in need with their money they accumulate but rather they donate the money to lear jets,18 bedroom mansions and Limosuines.Just goes to show you if even 1/3 of the churches actually gave full donations of their earnings they would be trying to fulfill the bibles creeds when it comes to the poor.Or even using Jesus's message to the rich man.



"I'm sure God gets no joy out of the suffering people go through - but it's not His fault."


I can show you plenty of scripture where Elohim or whatever name you wish to call it does show joy in liquidating its own creation.

"Is it your fault if a store is robbed and the cashier is killed because you didn't jump in front of the bullet?"

Bad anaology since god can prevent things from happening in the first place by not CREATING such scenarios.

"The fact is, there is only so much God can do - without violating free will and natural law."


The fact is god has shown to do nothing since its existence is not valid.

[Darias]

"It would be helpful, but God is not a genie in a bottle. Our ancestors impoverished certain areas of the world and our kids are suffering for it. God didn't stop the evil of the Holocaust because of the choices of a few elite, and God probably won't feed all the starving children tonight."

This reminds me of an Epicurus quotation:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?�

Can God not still be omnipotent if He chooses to grant men free will, vowing to Himself that he will not violate the law He set in place, even though He could in theory do so?

If we were all automatons incapable of doing anything, and aware of being slaves in our own bodies - would that not be hell? A perfect world indeed.

"I would prefer it if everyone could have enough to eat, but if I were God, and everyone depended on me to fulfill their every wish and need - I don't know if I could do that."

It is the believers who pray to god for everything.Those who do not rely on a diety get things done.

I'm not taking sides on this. There are plenty of idle people on this world. It's not worth labeling an entire group as superior or inferior at accomplishing things because they believe in [insert belief here]. I know of many Christians whose faith in God inspired them to do great things. Prayer is not a substitute for action -- neither is the feeling of good will towards another. For me, prayer helps me focus and calm down. I wouldn't be as capable or as excited to do things were it not for prayer.

"We'd all just wait around for the next miracle to make our mistakes go away."

As i suggested.Believers in a god do such that. 1.1 billion agnostics/atheists/secularists do not.

I'm sure a lot of people hope for miracles in their lives, but there's nothing wrong with a positive hope to keep you going is there?

"This isn't a perfect world. The reality is, I don't know or understand God's reasoning. I'm not God, so I can't answer for Him. All I can do, is do my best to give and help others in need. If everyone helped out their neighbor, we wouldn't be in this situation talking about this issue."

True if everyone did help put we could eliminate a lot of problems but thats not the case.Mega churches owned by such christian " luminaries " like Benny Hinn,Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Copeland whom rake in billions just between them three alone sure could help out many in need with their money they accumulate but rather they donate the money to lear jets,18 bedroom mansions and Limosuines.Just goes to show you if even 1/3 of the churches actually gave full donations of their earnings they would be trying to fulfill the bibles creeds when it comes to the poor.Or even using Jesus's message to the rich man.

Im not a fan of any of those pastors or their mega churches. I'm sure money organizations like these, or in any organization, has a chance of being mis-used -- probably more-so with these guys. But still, how does this burden of "responsibility for not giving enough" fall only upon the Christians of the world?

"I'm sure God gets no joy out of the suffering people go through - but it's not His fault."

I can show you plenty of scripture where Elohim or whatever name you wish to call it does show joy in liquidating its own creation.

I'm sure you could. But certain Biblical authors' understandings of natural disasters and death and destruction doesn't necessarily reflect God's actual attitude towards men.

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord God...

"Is it your fault if a store is robbed and the cashier is killed because you didn't jump in front of the bullet?"

Bad anaology since god can prevent things from happening in the first place by not CREATING such scenarios.

Okay. I admit. It was a bad analogy.

"The fact is, there is only so much God can do - without violating free will and natural law."

The fact is god has shown to do nothing since its existence is not valid.

Nothing would make God's existence valid for you, unless the sun turns into a giant donut. I don't believe in a magic God that grants wishes and fixes every human error and ailment. I don't think God is evil for allowing evil to exist. Evil (or bad things) happen in most cases because of choices that people make. However this free will is necessary for people to actually love and do good of their own want and desire - not by divine force. The price of this free-will, which is granted to everyone, is sadly, the abuse of such - which contributes to pain and suffering in this world.


As a side note... I think you're making this into an "us versus them" argument -- Theist versus Atheist/Agnostic. It's kinda drifting the topic, since this is about human suffering not the "superiority/inferiority" of believers/non-believers.

I'm going to bed now. It's late. We'll continue later.

[The Mad Haranguer]

If God is so loving and compassionate why does he let suffering happen.

is it:

he is incapable of stopping it, but wants to.
he is capable of stopping it but doesn't want to
he is neither willing to, or capable of stopping it

also please site where in the bible you got your answer from. (which part of the bible)

1. What do you mean by "God"?
2. What causes suffering?
3. What suffers?
4. Ever consider the logical implications of omnipresence?