Do Obama And His Liberal Friends Despise America?

[WinePusher]

I'd say yes, Liberals and the current president do despise America and what she stands for. Here are the factors that lead me to this conclusion.

1) Statements and Quotations From The President and Cabinet Officials. The Attorney General called this a "nation of cowards." The President went to Europe and Cairo where he called America an "arrogant" nation and apologized for our wrongdoings. The president likes associating with America Haters such as Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers and Van Jones.

2) The president and his liberal friends clearly have contempt for the constitution. They adamently oppose the second amendment, they have increased the size of the federal government instead of limiting it; they scorn state's rights and the 10th amendment. The promote first amendment violating laws such as the fairness doctrine.

3) The president and his attorney general have a very lenient and sympathetic stance towards the vicious killers who attacked us on 9/11. Some administration officials oppose water boarding under an circumstance (P.J Crowley), even if american lives are at risk. They want to give these terrorists civilian trials, and jeopardize the lives of the Judge, the Jurors, and the Prosecutor forever. The liberal ACLU and Justice Department Attornies seem more than glad to defend these terrorists, and the "Adams Project", affiliated with the ACLU, takes pictures of CIA interrogators and shows them to GITMO detainees.

4) The left wing has always shown distaste for our military, our police officers, and our border patrol. It was the Liberal Anti War traitors in the 60's who alienated and marganalized returning Vietnam War Vets, it is the treacherous code pink who protest our brave troops, it was the liberal activist Elena Herrada who called compared our Border Patrol to the KKK.

5) The cultural left wing hollywood elites have been shown to have contempt for America's traditional values. They promote single motherhood with glee, they promote teenager pregnancies with glee, and they promote wedlock marriages with glee. I challenge anyone to give me a movie that promotes the nuclear family, and self reliance, and a healthy heterosexual marriage. The liberal Actors such as Oliver Stone speak fondly of Stalin and Castro.

Questions For Debate:

Do Obama and the left wing despise America?
Is my list of factors justified, or am I just being a "fear monger"?

[JoeyKnothead]

I 'preciate that WinePusher is so quickly willing to retract/clarify or stop using inflammatory rhetoric.

To me it shows another patriot with a love and passion for this great country, who is willing to admit when he crosses a line (that others have drawn).

[micatala]

I'd say yes, Liberals and the current president do despise America and what she stands for. Here are the factors that lead me to this conclusion.

I would say no and that most of what follows below is misrepresenting philosophical and policy disagreements as hatred of America. I also think a lot of these accusations are so vague as to be nearly meaningless without context and specificity. I'll address some point by point.

1) Statements and Quotations From The President and Cabinet Officials. The Attorney General called this a "nation of cowards." The President went to Europe and Cairo where he called America an "arrogant" nation and apologized for our wrongdoings. The president likes associating with America Haters such as Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers and Van Jones.

Again, as with Joey, I want context on the Holder comment.

On Ayers, it is completely unfair to say "Obama likes to associate with Ayers." Their associations were coincidental and not on the initiative of Obama. The Ayers association is a slanderous smear.

On Wright, yes Obama associated with him for a time, but has repudiated that association. Now, Wright is a loose cannon and something of a demagog. But it is also true that the right-wing has not even fairly dealt with his comments in context either.

I will have to look into the Van Jones situation.


And again, the apology in Europe and the middle east incidents are not being farily portrayed here. Acknowledging our errors does not represent hatred of America. That is just silly.

And on the "association game", consider the discussion in the Is the Tea Party Racist thread. I think it is fair to say we have documented racism and other extremism in the tea party. Some have implied violence. Violence has actually occurred in the throwing of rocks through windows, etc. winepusher and others are eager to marginalize those elements and claim it is unfair to tar the whole tea party because some of them behave badly.

And yet, this OP represents exactly the kind of associational smears winepusher has rightly objected to with respect to the Tea Party.

2) The president and his liberal friends clearly have contempt for the constitution. They adamently oppose the second amendment, they have increased the size of the federal government instead of limiting it; they scorn state's rights and the 10th amendment. The promote first amendment violating laws such as the fairness doctrine.

No, a difference in interpretation of constitutional issues is not contempt. I will note the spending level of the federal government is not really a constitutional issue, for one, and a lot of that spending is due to the extremity of our current and recent circumstances.

I will not comment further unless specifics are provided on these items.

3) The president and his attorney general have a very lenient and sympathetic stance towards the vicious killers who attacked us on 9/11. Some administration officials oppose water boarding under an circumstance (P.J Crowley), even if american lives are at risk. They want to give these terrorists civilian trials, and jeopardize the lives of the Judge, the Jurors, and the Prosecutor forever. The liberal ACLU and Justice Department Attornies seem more than glad to defend these terrorists, and the "Adams Project", affiliated with the ACLU, takes pictures of CIA interrogators and shows them to GITMO detainees.

Following the rule of law equates to leniency??

Haven't we been trying terrorists in civilian courts for years (e.g. the shoe bomber)??

Didn't the Bush Administration provide lawyers to terrorist detainees??

Is winepusher saying we should ignore the law of the land??

And, as noted above, the ACLU is not the Obama administration, and I reject the fallacious associations that continue to be made here.

4) The left wing has always shown distaste for our military, our police officers, and our border patrol. It was the Liberal Anti War traitors in the 60's who alienated and marganalized returning Vietnam War Vets, it is the treacherous code pink who protest our brave troops, it was the liberal activist Elena Herrada who called compared our Border Patrol to the KKK.

Some on the left wing are anti-military. Do you have any evidence that Obama is? If he is anti-military, why is he so adamantely pursuing the Afghan war when his "leftist base" as you term it is so adamantly opposed?



And again, I tire of broad brush vaguaries. Please specify who you mean by the left wing. Is Harry Reid left-wing? How about Byron Dorgan or Patrick Moynihan? Is Joe Biden or Joe Liebermann left wing? Hillary Clinton?

5) The cultural left wing hollywood elites have been shown to have contempt for America's traditional values. They promote single motherhood with glee, they promote teenager pregnancies with glee, and they promote wedlock marriages with glee. I challenge anyone to give me a movie that promotes the nuclear family, and self reliance, and a healthy heterosexual marriage. The liberal Actors such as Oliver Stone speak fondly of Stalin and Castro.

Hollywood is not the Obama Administration.

As far as a movie example, how about the Blind Side with oscar winner Sandra Bullock?

And I am sorry, I utterly and completely and vociferously reject that promoting gay rights or gay marriage is un-American. That fact that you have a different opinion on gay marriage does not mean you get to redefine what America is in your own image. I promote gay marriage because in my view it is entirely consistent with the most central tenets and rationale for the constitution.

The items you list are more associated with religious beliefs than anything in the constitution. Where is marriage even mentioned in the constitution? How about illegitimacy? Isn't establishment of religion against the constitution?

Would it be fair of me to accuse people who make Biblical cases for preventing gay marriage as hating America because they put their biblical beliefs over my view of the constitution???

Questions For Debate:

Do Obama and the left wing despise America?
Is my list of factors justified, or am I just being a "fear monger"?

You are painting with an exceedingly broad and biased brush. Your factors are almost entirely beside the point, off base, and do not show Obama hates America. If you want to expand that to "his liberal friends" than I need to know who we are talking about. I think if we named names we would find that nearly none of those you might term his "liberal friends" hate America either.

[Grumpy]

WinePusher

I would certainly do away with the rule of law if american lives were at risk.

They would not be American lives WITHOUT the Constitution and the rule of law. Doing away with the rule of law(even for terrorists)would endanger everyone, including Right Wingers.

The rest of your OP is just an insulting screed full of lies and disinformation. Your attitude could not be more unAmerican if you set fire to every copy of the Constitution. The demonizing of those who recognize the idiocy of the Right Wing's behavior is par for the course, however. It just gives fodder to what all the Left Wing nutcases have been saying all along about the evil being committed by the so-called patriotic Right.

Its very easy to just say someone is being a fear monger without showing what they have said to be false, it would be productive to point out what facts I am misrepresenting.

All of them, just like Fox.

Grumpy

[WinePusher]

Doing away with the rule of law(even for terrorists)would endanger everyone, including Right Wingers.

No because I never said we should do away with the rule of law. I said we should do away with the rule of law when American Lives are at risk. Any reasonable person would see the practicality of not reading a terrorists his miranda rights, and not telling him he has the right to close his mouth and stop talking.

The rest of your OP is just an insulting screed full of lies and disinformation.

Can you show which parts of the OP are lies and disinformation? The point of debate is to debate, not to demonize the other side.

Your attitude could not be more unAmerican if you set fire to every copy of the Constitution.[/ The demonizing of those who recognize the idiocy of the Right Wing's behavior is par for the course, however. It just gives fodder to what all the Left Wing nutcases have been saying all along about the evil being committed by the so-called patriotic Right.

[WinePusher]

Doing away with the rule of law(even for terrorists)would endanger everyone, including Right Wingers.

Notice I never said we should do away with the rule of law. I said we should do away with the rule of law when american lives are at risk. Any reasonable person would see that it is not practical to read a terrorist the miranda rights and tell them to close their mouths.

The rest of your OP is just an insulting screed full of lies and disinformation.

Can you show me which parts of the OP are lies and disinformation? That is the point of debate, is it not?

The demonizing of those who recognize the idiocy of the Right Wing's behavior is par for the course, however.

Demonizing? Where do I demonize in the OP? I admit I used unfair and unjustified language, but every single events and situation I list up there is true. It is true that our returning vietnam veterans were marganalized by the Anti War Left, It is true that the Liberal Activist Elena Herrda compared our border patrol to the KKK, it is true that Eric Holder called this a "nation of cowards." But you seem to set aside these facts........

[micatala]

Doing away with the rule of law(even for terrorists)would endanger everyone, including Right Wingers.

Notice I never said we should do away with the rule of law. I said we should do away with the rule of law when american lives are at risk. Any reasonable person would see that it is not practical to read a terrorist the miranda rights and tell them to close their mouths.

Reasonable people, like most law enforcement officials past and present, read people arrested their Miranda rights. I believe this was happening prior to the Obama and even the Bush administrations.

THus, this comment is completely irrelevant on the topic of Obama. If this is evidence Obama hates America, than so does Bush and every other person who has ever read a suspected violent criminal their Miranda rights.

Keep in mind American lives are at risk all the time from all sorts of sources. Do you think Timothy McVeigh was not read his rights? How about neo-Nazi people who get arrested? How about abortion clinic bombers?


The fact that this even comes up and is then linked with Obama indicates the dishonesty and inconsistency of those pushing the story (e.g. Rush, FOX, etc.).

The rest of your OP is just an insulting screed full of lies and disinformation.

Can you show me which parts of the OP are lies and disinformation? That is the point of debate, is it not?

grumpy can speak for himself. I think I did that in my previous post. Some of it is not so much lies but such severe spin and comments offered out of context that the statements don't even really have any truth value. What is the objective definition of "having scorn for the 10th amendment?"

The demonizing of those who recognize the idiocy of the Right Wing's behavior is par for the course, however.

Demonizing? Where do I demonize in the OP? I admit I used unfair and unjustified language, but every single events and situation I list up there is true. It is true that our returning vietnam veterans were marganalized by the Anti War Left, It is true that the Liberal Activist Elena Herrda compared our border patrol to the KKK, it is true that Eric Holder called this a "nation of cowards." But you seem to set aside these facts........

It is not true that Obama likes to associate with America haters like Bill Ayers.

It is not true that the President and Attorney general have sympathy for terrorists.

It is not true that the administration wants to jeapordize the lives of judges, jurors, and prosecutors.

It is not true that Obama supports the fairness doctrine.

It is not true that Obama or his administration in general have distaste for the military.

It is not true that there are no Hollywood movies that promote "the nuclear family, and self reliance, and a healthy heterosexual marriage."

Several other statements are so vague as to be in the realm of disinformation.



What is the context for the Holder "nation of cowards" quote?

What is the context for Obama's statements that you refer to as apologies for arrogance?

What do you mean by "adamantly oppose the second amenmdnet" or"scorn state's rights?"

Why are some sixties anti-war protesters being lumped together with Obama?

Why people who may support gay marriage being in effect called un-American?


WHere is there any evidence that Obama despises America?

[WinePusher]

Notice I never said we should do away with the rule of law. I said we should do away with the rule of law when american lives are at risk. Any reasonable person would see that it is not practical to read a terrorist the miranda rights and tell them to close their mouths.

Reasonable people, like most law enforcement officials past and present, read people arrested their Miranda rights. I believe this was happening prior to the Obama and even the Bush administrations.

There is a difference between a non citizen foreign enemy combatant and a domestic criminal.

THus, this comment is completely irrelevant on the topic of Obama. If this is evidence Obama hates America, than so does Bush and every other person who has ever read a suspected violent criminal their Miranda rights.

No, because my statement is being misconstrued. I said, if American lives are at risk because our national security is in jeophardy because of foreign enemy combatants, then we should do away with the rule of law. Not when a domestic criminal is apphrehended.

Keep in mind American lives are at risk all the time from all sorts of sources. Do you think Timothy McVeigh was not read his rights? How about neo-Nazi people who get arrested? How about abortion clinic bombers?

I believe abortion bombers and neo nazi militias are generally citizens, and generally do not have intelligence pertaining to future eminent attacks. But if an abortion bomber was arrested, and there was reasonable suspecion that another abortion bombing was going to be carried out, then interrogate the bomber using waterboarding if he won't talk. If lives are at risk, do whatever is neccesary to save those lives.

grumpy can speak for himself. I think I did that in my previous post. Some of it is not so much lies but such severe spin and comments offered out of context that the statements don't even really have any truth value. What is the objective definition of "having scorn for the 10th amendment?"

I shouldn't have used the word "scorn" I should have said that the left in America generally pass laws that conflict with state's rights, as indicated by Obamacare.

It is not true that Obama likes to associate with America haters like Bill Ayers.

It is true that Obama associate with Ayers, and there is a troubling pattern of association with Obama and left wing radicals

It is not true that the administration wants to jeapordize the lives of judges, jurors, and prosecutors.

It is true that by giving terrorists civilian trials, they will eb jeophardizing the lives of judges, jurors and prosecutors.

It is not true that Obama supports the fairness doctrine.

Never claimed he did. It is true that liberal senators, such as Dianne Feinstein, support the fairness doctrine.

It is not true that Obama or his administration in general have distaste for the military.

Never said he did. It is true that the anti war left marganalized our vietnam veterans because they disagree with the war, and that was despicable.

It is not true that there are no Hollywood movies that promote "the nuclear family, and self reliance, and a healthy heterosexual marriage."

I hope your right, but the majority of TV shows and movies do not promote "the nuclear family, self reliance, and a healthy heterosexual marriage." I would like to see one if one exists.

What is the context for the Holder "nation of cowards" quote?

Context only matters if the meaning of the quote is misconstrued when taken out of context. Is their an underlying connotation to Holder's remarks when we place the quote in context?

What is the context for Obama's statements that you refer to as apologies for arrogance?

Foreign trips meant to familiarize the world with the newly elected president.

What do you mean by "adamantly oppose the second amenmdnet" or"scorn state's rights?"

That the left opposes gun rights. Look at SCOTUS, the entire liberal wing voted aganist gun rights, do you disagree?

Why are some sixties anti-war protesters being lumped together with Obama?

I was not associated them together. But the anti war protestors make up the liberla base, do they not?

Why people who may support gay marriage being in effect called un-American?

Did I say that? Please show me the quote so I can retract it.

[Grumpy]

WinePusher

Notice I never said we should do away with the rule of law. I said we should do away with the rule of law when american lives are at risk.

In for a penny, in for a pound. We are better as a country than the rest of the world BECAUSE we read miranda rights to all prisoners suspected of crimes, BECAUSE a man is innocent until proven guilty and BECAUSE we do not allow(legally)any of our government agencies to torture prisoners, WITH NO EXCEPTIONS. How could we have any moral superiority to the rest of the world if we behave just like they do?

Can you show me which parts of the OP are lies and disinformation? That is the point of debate, is it not?

Your screed is so full of it that I don't even want to start typing for fear that I will be stooping to the level you have set.

The demonizing of those who recognize the idiocy of the Right Wing's behavior is par for the course, however.

Demonizing? Where do I demonize in the OP?

I'd say yes, Liberals and the current president do despise America and what she stands for.

Slander.

The president likes associating with America Haters such as Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers and Van Jones.

Lie.

The president and his liberal friends clearly have contempt for the constitution.

Lie.

The president and his attorney general have a very lenient and sympathetic stance towards the vicious killers who attacked us on 9/11.

So how many have they let go? Didn't W try the shoe bomber in a New York Court? This is pure Right Wing talking points and they are lies.

but every single events and situation I list up there is true.

You have twisted the truth to the point of LYING.

It is true that our returning vietnam veterans were marganalized by the Anti War Left

When I returned I fought vigorously to end the war, it was an evil undertaking in the first place, it was run by incompetent men and it accomplished nothing but a humiliating defeat in a war where we won every battle. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have degenerated from their original mission(the war in Iraq was the neocon's payback to Saddam, it had nothing to do with 911). The Left was right about that war, they are right today.

It is true that the Liberal Activist Elena Herrda compared our border patrol to the KKK

Tell her, I don't agree with that so I will not be lumped in with nutcases, or is Michael Bachman who we should measure you by?

it is true that Eric Holder called this a "nation of cowards."

In what context? Or did you just believe what Fox said?

But you seem to set aside these facts........

I certainly don't twist and bend them 'til they break, nor do I paint you with a broad brush, though your behavior tells us where you stand. You seem to think we don't recognize your statements as on the fringe, over the top demonization of your opponents in politics, just like Tailgunner Joe on one of his less sober days.

Grumpy

[LiamOS]

If liberals despise America, I can tell you that they're not without reason.

I have a funny feeling that you would call the European educational systems and health systems "socialist", which rather saddens me. I believe what the liberals are attempting to do is create a just society from a grossly unjust one, and if I've learned anything from watching Westerns, that's what America is really about.
"The Land of Freedom" isn't anything of the sort.

When people want to get rid of the laws allowing citizens to own firearms, there's a reason for that. Have you compared gun deaths in the US to those in say Ireland?
The US has 15 times more per person.
Then there's the healthcare. If I turned up at a hospital missing and arm and couldn't pay for anything, I'd still get treated. No insurance or anything.
Then we've got free College/University education.

Would that sort of thing not make America better?

[WinePusher]

I have a funny feeling that you would call the European educational systems and health systems "socialist", which rather saddens me.

I don't know about your guys educational system, but your healthcare system is socialist by definition. Isn't it government run and funded by public taxiation?

When people want to get rid of the laws allowing citizens to own firearms, there's a reason for that. Have you compared gun deaths in the US to those in say Ireland?

The thing that is missing is the criminals that shoot people with guns do not care about the law. If a law is enacted that strips people of their guns, the gangs and robbers still will have guns regardless of any law. Gun Control legislation does not reduce crime.

Then there's the healthcare. If I turned up at a hospital missing and arm and couldn't pay for anything, I'd still get treated. No insurance or anything.

You would also be treated in the United States.

Then we've got free College/University education.

Would that sort of thing not make America better?

My opinion on universal education are mixed. I believe that everyone who wants an education should be able to get one, and education is the means by which one suceeds in society, but how much are you going to keep burderning the tax payers; I believe that people are required to have reponsibility for themselves and not be so benevolent with other peoples money.