Cherry picking your way though the Bible...

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adthemad
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Cherry picking your way though the Bible...

Post #1

Post by adthemad »

THIS is the passage your hear a lot of... and when I went to church it was mentioned quite often and in fact it was up on the wall:
John 3:16 (New International Version)
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

However THIS passage wasn't:
15:32. And it came to pass, when the children of Israel were in the wilderness, and had found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day,
15:33. That they brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole multitude.
15:34. And they put him into prison, not knowing what they should do with him.
15:35. And the Lord said to Moses: Let that man die, let all the multitude stone him without the camp.
15:36. And when they had brought him out, they stoned him, and he died as the Lord had commanded.

I'm wondering in what universe / language / time is it possible for a deity powerful enough to create the universe(s) as we know it... the beauty of the entire biological ecosystem of our blue planet in our galaxy the milky way... how is it possible that writing about stoning a man to death for picking up twigs makes it into the final draft of this book that's meant to be some sort guidance for us wee humankind?

how do you cherry pick the good bits out of the bad?

I was in the woods last Sunday... saw a man picking up some twigs...

the rest is history :?

cnorman18

Re: Cherry picking your way though the Bible...

Post #21

Post by cnorman18 »

Jrosemary wrote:
Excellent response, CNorman! I'll just add that you are speaking for a good deal of Orthodox Judaism as well. The story that points out that the Torah is with us now, not in heaven, is, after all, a classic rabbinic story. And even in Orthodox Judaism, deed still outweighs creed.

Let's look at it this way: If an atheist or agnostic Jew is shomer Shabbat--a guardian of the Sabbath, meaning he fully observes the Sabbath--and keeps thoroughly kosher, and observes all the holidays, etc., . . . well, everyone calls him Orthodox! (The Modern Orthodox Herman Wouk points out in This is My God that there are really only twenty or so observances that, if kept, make you pretty Orthodox.)

It's worth pointing out, too, that Judaism functions much differently than Christianity. Neill Gilman puts it well in Sacred Fragments. He explains that there are three components to being religious: belonging, doing and believing.

Judaism stresses two of these. It stresses belonging; in what way did you become a Jew? There's a consensus that if you were born to a Jewish mother, you're a Jew. Then we argue about patralineal descent and which branch of Judaism converts should convert into.

Judaism also stresses doing. In fact, doing stuff or not doing stuff is what makes you religious in Judaism. Now, religious or not, everyone's expected to do good deeds. (Here's that stress on ethics.) But specific observances are what make you, colloquially, religious or not religious. For example, here are two sentences that probably only make sense in a Jewish context:

1. A guy says, "Look, I believe in G-d, I pray and meditate, I'm active in my synagogue, but I'm not religious!"

This translates to: "I believe in G-d, I pray and meditate, I'm active in my synagogue, but I don't keep kosher, or observe the Sabbath, etc.

2. A woman says, "You won't believe how religious this agnostic guy I'm dating is!"

This translates to: The guy I'm dating is agnostic, but he keeps kosher, he observes the Sabbath, etc.

So belonging and doing are important in Judaism, but there's little emphasis on belief--much to Neill Gilman's dismay, since he's a Jewish theologian!

Christianity, on the other hand, emphasizes beliefs. In fact, beliefs are of utmost importance. You can make a respectable argument that if you don't believe thus and thus, you're not a Christian. This situation is utterly alien to Judaism. From a Jewish viewpoint, if you were born to a Jewish mother, or at some point in your life converted to Judaism, you are a Jew. It doesn't matter if you convert to another religion or to no religion at all. Your beliefs don't make you a Jew.

And for all the emphasis we put on deed, your practices don't make you a Jew either. Again, ethical behavior and good deeds are expected of all Jews and, for that matter, humanity at large. Specific observances are important, but they don't make you a Jew. They only determine what kind of Jew, on the scale of Orthodox to Secular, you are.

Bottom line: when you're dealing with Judaism, you need to recognize that it doesn't work the same way as Christianity. There's no obsession with believing this or believing that. Now, beliefs aren't completely irrelavant in Judaism--I mean, come on. We argue about them and their relevant importance all the time. :eyebrow: But they don't determine your Jewishness or lack thereof. An outspoken atheist like Christopher Hitchens is every bit as Jewish as the deeply theist and observant Herman Wouk.
Very well said, as always, and I quite agree. By sheer coincidence, Wouk's This Is My God was the very first book I read on my own journey to Judaism.

My own firsthand knowledge of Orthodoxy is sketchy; my intent in my posts is not so much to deny the authenticity of its (many) approaches, which I have no intent of doing, but only not to presume to speak for the Orthodox. I think that what I have said here applies to Orthodox theology as well, but it seems clear to me that their approach to being "religious" - that is, to the details of observance - is rather more prescriptive and rigid than that of either "modern Orthodox" or more liberal movements, which are more likely to tolerate individual choice in levels of observance. I suppose, like most other aspects of Jewish life, it depends on the individual congregation and community.

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Post #22

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Too many great posts in this thread to single one out, but if I had to pick one, I'd pick my post here for it's attempt to draw folks into reading the entire thread.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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