Healthcare Reform

[Kuan]

Since the new health care reform bill was passed, are we doing the right thing? Does this new bill take us in the right direction or the wrong direction? I have very little knowledge of this and I want to hear all sides so I can start to develop and gain knowledge of the issue. One thing that I know we need for sure is tort reform but why are so many scared to tackle it? Also why would socialized be better than a capitalized system?

Tort Reform Definition: http://usconservatives.about.com/od/glo ... Reform.htm

New Health Care Law: http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/03/ ... -care-bill

[Crazy Ivan]

Yes eating right and exercise is a start, and it does GREATLY reduce the risk of health related problems. It has been proven.

I hope so, otherwise I've been wasting considerable time and effort.

You think people don't know how to educate themselves?

I think it's a flattering assumption. That still has no bearing on whether or not the citizens of a country that identify with each other's successes should also be responsible for each other's shortcomings.

Do you think the "underprivileged" are dumb?

I used the word "undereducated".

And will never be able to do anything for themselves.

Isn't theirs the "Kingdom of Heaven"?

With all the resources available to people this day and age, I find these statements to be pure satire to say the least.

"All the resources" translates to a great deal of misinformation. It takes more skill to sift through the garbage, from home shopping networks for instance, than one can reasonably blame people for not having. It usually boils down to what kind of education one had, which should be viewed as everyone's responsibility, so everyone should also be accountable to the results of poor education, namely contributing to a pool for those individuals that, from poor education, lack both the means or the knowledge to live healthy lives.

[WinePusher]

I see nothing "liberal" about the mentality of appointed representatives knowing what's best for their constituents. Seems like common sense to me. What's intriguing is for the constituents to presume knowing better than the appointed representatives, as if these individuals aren't considerably more educated and apt than their constituencies.

I don't know how they do it in Europe, but they are called REPRESENTATIVES for a reason. They are in Washington to REPRESENT the interests of their constituents, not represent t their OWN agenda aganist the will of the people they are supposed to rerpesent.

Liberals cannot fathom the idea that Americans do not want their healthcare taken over by the government, thus they must not understand it.

That average people don't understand the bill is a reasonable assumption. Even above-average people.

Likewise, the people that support socialized medicine to not understand it.

Maybe they do understand it and reject it on the basis of merit, not ignorance.

From my objective European perspective I saw nothing to indicate the bill was rejected out of merit. What I did see, was a country of people that, as a whole, did not wish to contribute to a pool from where all sick people, that can't afford healthcare, take when necessary. But I'm not saying the American people isn't entitled to be selfish... I'm just saying they lack the courage of their convictions.

No, this is incorrect. Americans would rather not sacrifice the quality of care, which exceeds every other country in the world. There are many other ways of covering sick people without having the government take it over, such as medical savings accounts.

[Crazy Ivan]

I don't know how they do it in Europe, but they are called REPRESENTATIVES for a reason. They are in Washington to REPRESENT the interests of their constituents, not represent t their OWN agenda aganist the will of the people they are supposed to rerpesent.

The "will of the people" (assuming that's established) doesn't necessarily reflect their best interests. Are you prepared to argue conservative administrations don't take measures against the "will of the people" for what they consider to be in their best interests at the time?

Likewise, the people that support socialized medicine to not understand it.

Why not average the education levels of supporters of each side? Should give some indication of who understands what better.

No, this is incorrect. Americans would rather not sacrifice the quality of care, which exceeds every other country in the world.

"Americans" as a whole do NOT enjoy the quality of care you mention. That it is available to some is an assumption I'm willing to indulge.

There are many other ways of covering sick people without having the government take it over, such as medical savings accounts.

Which would only work for employed people with average to high incomes. The others simply can't accumulate sufficient funds.

[Kuan]

Even if it is a small issue, why not address it?

[Kuan]

1. Yes, I brought up a major one that was covered by the media, how does that prove your point?
Predator-Plaintiffs filed 30 Million new lawsuits last year!
That's over 82,000 PER DAY!

You do understand we are talking about malpractice lawsuits dont you not general lawsuits as this site is referring. I find it amazing that of all the sites available you chose the one and only that agreed with you even though it is from a service that is trying to sell you tax deferrals to supposedly protect you from such things.

Nope, I thought we are referring to all types of frivolous lawsuits.

Lets see medical malpractice has to do with the law and business, but you dismiss out of hand links from both. Even the one you say is legit you ignore in favor of the site which conforms to your already formed opinions. This is why I thanked you for proving my point of the analogy with air travel. Just as with people convinced that air travel is dangerous you are convinced medical malpractice lawsuits are a common event, look at the site you used, 82k new lawsuits every day it fits perfectly into your preconcieved notions and as long as it agrees with you it hardly matters what the truth is does it.

Yes it does have to do with law but I dont trust a business reporter on it. Actualy the truth does matter. They are common enough create problems. Also what of the PBS source? You are right I should not have dismissed that one.

This is that profit motive you were talking about, doctors get paid by HMOs and medicare when they run tests, the more tests that are run on a patient the more money that doctor will make. Would you rather have a doctor doing his job properly or trying to milk the system for every penny he can which by the way you will eventually pay for in higher premiums.

Isnt it possible for both statements to be true? The doctor has a book of cheaper tests he can use but because of an HMO and the system he cant use it cause he cant make money. I might be misinterpreting you right now, we could be talking about the same thing.

You admit teachers are underpaid did you ever think that if teachers were paid more you might get a better quality teacher instead of whoever can't find a job elsewhere.

Yes I have but were do you get the money? Landowners right? Well were I live our district is so big that the landowners in one area are paying for their child and 3 others from the other side of the state.

Im not against reform. Only an uninformed person would be against it, I just don't know which reform would work and whether obamacare is a good idea considering how much opposition there is to it.

No, this is incorrect. Americans would rather not sacrifice the quality of care, which exceeds every other country in the world.

"Americans" as a whole do NOT enjoy the quality of care you mention. That it is available to some is an assumption I'm willing to indulge.

The US has better health care than most countries. We spend the most on it for sure but we still fail to achieve better outcomes than others such as Australia.

Percent of persons who failed to obtain needed medical care due to cost: 6.5% (2008)
Percent of persons with a usual place to go for medical care: 86% (2008)
Persons under age 65
Number uninsured at the time of interview: 43.6 million (2008)
Percent uninsured at the time of interview: 17% (2008)
Percent with private insurance at the time of interview: 65% (2008)
Source: Early release of selected estimates from the National Health Interview Survey, tables 1.1a-b, 1.2b

Children under age 18
Percent uninsured at the time of interview: 8.9% (2008)
Percent with private insurance at the time of interview: 58% (2008)
Percent with public health plan coverage at the time of interview: 34% (2008)
Source: Early release of selected estimates from the National Health Interview Survey, tables 1.1b, 1.2a-b

Adults age 18-64
Percent uninsured at the time of interview: 20% (2008)
Percent with private insurance at the time of interview: 68% (2008)
Percent with public health plan coverage at the time of interview: 13% (2008)
Source: Early release of selected estimates from the National Health Interview Survey, tables 1.1b, 1.2a-b

Sources: National Center for Health Statistics
CRS Report For Congress

[Goat]

Im not against reform. Only an uninformed person would be against it, I just don't know which reform would work and whether obamacare is a good idea considering how much opposition there is to it.

The ironic thing is that the bill that passed is what the heritage foundation, a very conservative republican think thank pushed for a couple of decades, and only changed their mind when Obama picked up the concept.

Then, they started the 'socialism' mantra, even though the health plan is not socialistic at all.

[Kuan]

Im not against reform. Only an uninformed person would be against it, I just don't know which reform would work and whether obamacare is a good idea considering how much opposition there is to it.

The ironic thing is that the bill that passed is what the heritage foundation, a very conservative republican think thank pushed for a couple of decades, and only changed their mind when Obama picked up the concept.

Then, they started the 'socialism' mantra, even though the health plan is not socialistic at all.

As I said, I am uninformed on the actual bill, I cant find a link anywhere for the complete thing or for a unbiased summary. I dont even know what it has in it, does anyone know of a good source?

[Goat]

Im not against reform. Only an uninformed person would be against it, I just don't know which reform would work and whether obamacare is a good idea considering how much opposition there is to it.

The ironic thing is that the bill that passed is what the heritage foundation, a very conservative republican think thank pushed for a couple of decades, and only changed their mind when Obama picked up the concept.

Then, they started the 'socialism' mantra, even though the health plan is not socialistic at all.

As I said, I am uninformed on the actual bill, I cant find a link anywhere for the complete thing or for a unbiased summary. I dont even know what it has in it, does anyone know of a good source?

This link has links to the original bills..

http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2010/03/a ... -ame.shtml

[MagusYanam]

Americans would rather not sacrifice the quality of care, which exceeds every other country in the world.

Let's not play fast and loose with the facts, here - this does not appear to be true. The Commonwealth Fund (a private, nonpartisan organisation committed to improving the quality of America's health care system) recently issued an updated comparison of the health care systems in seven industrialised nations. The US placed 7th of 7 in 5 out of 9 survey categories, 7th of 7 overall, and had the most expensive health care per capita (including portion of the per capita tax burden spent on health care). The best systems in the ranking in terms of quality belonged to New Zealand, to the Netherlands and to the UK in that order.

[Kuan]

The U.S. spends the most so we obviously know we are doing something wrong. Here is the budget in milions of dollars:

Memorandum: Outlays from American Recovery and Reinvestment Act..... 2009: 32,673; 2010 estimate: 45,674; 2011 estimate: 21,520

Total, Outlays..... 2009: 761,137; 2010 estimate: 812,935; 2011 estimate: 900,853

Source: U.S. Budget, Fiscal Year 2011


Even though socialized health care might be the best way to cover everyone it stops innovation because there is no money to be made in that field plus some other issues which are major.
British Health Care