Confusion?

[Zzyzx]

.
From another thread:

In reality, the image that such people present of Christianity while “doing god’s work� does more damage to Christianity, in my opinion, than a squad of Anti-Christians can do deliberately – then they are banned or leave of their own accord.

I agree.

If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

Interesting quote. See below.

You are aware, aren’t you that Christians are incarcerated at a rate approximately equal to the percentage of Christians in the general population – and that divorce rates are similar to those of Non-Christians? How is it that Christians “typically act differently�?????

1. (adj) Christian
a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination

2. (adj) Christian
relating to or characteristic of Christianity
"Christian rites"

3. (adj) christian
following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ

A person can be called a Christian under definitions 1 & 2 but not be included in category 3.

Let’s consider category three. By that definition, a person who follows the teachings OR manifests the qualities or spirit of Jesus IS a Christian, right?

“Following the teachings of Jesus� – what does that mean? What are the “teachings� that a person must follow to be a Christian? Must they follow everything that Jesus said, or some of it, or whatever parts they wish?

If a person “follows the teachings� some of the time or most of the time, is that “following the teachings�? If they follow SOME of the teachings but not all, are they Christians?

If a person “follows the teachings� (does most or all of what Jesus taught) but doubts that Jesus was anything more than a great preacher – are they a Christian.

“manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus� —again, what does this mean?

What “qualities of Jesus� must be manifested in order to be a Christian?

If a non-religious person “manifests the qualities of Jesus�, are they a Christian? Let’s say they are an exemplary person in every way, very “Christ like�, but do not worship “god� or Jesus or even think they exist – are they Christian? It seems as though they meet #3 definition.

People can raise their hand as a Christian for many reasons. The Bible states:

Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.

Does that mean that “anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says� is going to hell? Does it mean that they are not Christian?

It would appear to me, a resident of the Bible Belt who associates with Christians on an everyday basis and knows many of them quite well, that the vast majority who think of themselves as Christians are evidently not Christians at all (according to that requirement) and are headed for hell. Is that correct?

But wait, don’t you say that as long as a person accepts Jesus as savior they are “saved�? There is no need for any of my Christian friends to “follow the teachings of Jesus� because they already earned their ticket to heaven by simply “accepting Jesus as savior�. Right?

It is no wonder that some Christians I encounter are downright crooked, deceitful, hateful people. It doesn’t matter how they act, because by simply “accepting Jesus as savior� they are granted “eternal bliss� – while a truly exemplary or noble person who doesn’t accept Jesus is assured of “damnation� (or whatever). Is that correct?

Do those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus “get extra points� in heaven (since following his teachings is not required for “salvation� – only “accept Jesus as savior�)?

If you could compare the crime statistics of those "following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ" to the rest of humanity, I would expect that subset of "Christians" to have a lower rate of criminality. My only proof is that I have known such Christians in my life.

Are you saying that Christians can become thieves, rapists and murderers (all of which are considered “sins�, I presume) and doing so does NOT “control our salvation�?

I would hope it would be reversed. That is, thieves, rapists and murderers can become Christians. But yes, I suspose that stated your way it is still true. Our salvation under the New Testament is based on accepting Jesus as our Savior from sin.

What you appear to be saying is that as long as a person “accepts Jesus as savior� they can do anything they choose and still be “saved�. Is that correct?

How does that relate to “definition #3� above? Surely, a person who is a thief, rapist or murderer is NOT “following the teachings of Jesus�, right? They are certainly not “manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus. Right?

Are they still a Christian as long as they have “accepted Jesus as savior�?

Does that mean that a serial murderer can count on “salvation� provided that he “accepts Christ as his savior� and asks forgiveness?

Yes.

WAIT A MINUTE. Didn’t you quote James 1:26 above to say that if a person doesn’t hold their tongue their religion is worthless? Now you are saying that a serial killer is granted salvation (so his religion obviously must not be worthless).

Is it just me, or does that seem contradictory, inconsistent and irrational??????

According to what you are saying now, the ONLY requirement for “salvation� is accepting Jesus as savior. His teachings, such as, “Love thy neighbor as thyself� are purely opional if one is actually free to rob, rape or kill the neighbor instead of loving them -- and still be “saved�. Right?

Thus, the “commandments� are only suggestions – and doing exactly the opposite does not incur penalty. Right?

Thus, the vaulted “Christian ethics� are not binding on Christians. They are nice to talk about, but need not be followed or respected – and one still goes to heaven if they accept Jesus as savior. Right?


Questions for debate:

1. Does the religious position expressed above appear to be consistent?

2. Is it representative of Christianity in general?

3. Does it reflect the position of certain sects within Christianity? If so, what sects?

[myth-one.com]

I think I've pointed out three times that you misinterpreted Matthew 18:3 in your earlier posts. It's not strictly necessary to acknowledge one's mistakes, but continuing what amounts to a sermon in a condescending tone can be somewhat offensive.

Can you either:

1) give any evidence to support your interpretation of Matthew 18:3,

-- or --

2) show where my claims are in error based on the scriptures I quoted?

[Adamoriens]

Can you either:

1) give any evidence to support your interpretation of Matthew 18:3

Matthew 5:1-6, NIV:
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

My interpretation is that Jesus is:

1. Encouraging his disciples to become like children: "Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me."

2. Making a theological point that becoming like children is necessary (but not exclusively so) for entry into heaven.

What does it mean to become like a child? We get the impression from "whoever humbles himself like this child..." that acquiring a spirit of humility has something to do with it. And perhaps the ability to be taught, but it's hard to say whether he intended that meaning.

What we can say is that he was definitely not talking about the conversion of physical bodies to spiritual bodies, as you state in post 3.

Show [me] where my claims are in error based on the scriptures I quoted?

With respect to Matthew 18:3, I have. Extensively. I only challenged you on your interpretation of Matthew 18 (and the whole hypothetical Christian murderer thing) but you've responded with a "scatter-shot" mentality: just pepper me with a cloud of verses, theological claims, and assorted bafflegab and hope the problem goes away. To be honest the issue of your misinterpretation is such a tiny one, but I hate to see it go by without being challenged.

If you can't admit you used the verse incorrectly, then I don't see any reason for this discussion to continue. Have a good night.

[myth-one.com]

If you can't admit you used the verse incorrectly, then I don't see any reason for this discussion to continue. Have a good night.

I cannot admit to something untrue.

In Luke 20 Jesus is describing Christians which will be resurrected to everlasting life in the Kingdom of God at the Second Coming, when He states:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Can they be the children of the resurrection before the resurrection?

In a broad sense we are all the children of God because He created us. But once we become adults we are no longer "like" children. Children do not understand right from wrong, so they cannot sin -- while adults sin daily. How can adults become like little children while envying, lusting, hating, etc? Children do not do those things. Do you know a Christian who does not sin on a daily basis? I don't, but I know children who have not sinned.

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Christians are converted from human bodies to spiritual bodies. Thanks to Jesus paying the penalty for their sins, they are resurrected as sinless children of the resurrection. The sins they committed as humans having been forgiven, they begin eternity with a clean record!