Confusion?

[Zzyzx]

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From another thread:

In reality, the image that such people present of Christianity while “doing god’s work� does more damage to Christianity, in my opinion, than a squad of Anti-Christians can do deliberately – then they are banned or leave of their own accord.

I agree.

If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

Interesting quote. See below.

You are aware, aren’t you that Christians are incarcerated at a rate approximately equal to the percentage of Christians in the general population – and that divorce rates are similar to those of Non-Christians? How is it that Christians “typically act differently�?????

1. (adj) Christian
a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination

2. (adj) Christian
relating to or characteristic of Christianity
"Christian rites"

3. (adj) christian
following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ

A person can be called a Christian under definitions 1 & 2 but not be included in category 3.

Let’s consider category three. By that definition, a person who follows the teachings OR manifests the qualities or spirit of Jesus IS a Christian, right?

“Following the teachings of Jesus� – what does that mean? What are the “teachings� that a person must follow to be a Christian? Must they follow everything that Jesus said, or some of it, or whatever parts they wish?

If a person “follows the teachings� some of the time or most of the time, is that “following the teachings�? If they follow SOME of the teachings but not all, are they Christians?

If a person “follows the teachings� (does most or all of what Jesus taught) but doubts that Jesus was anything more than a great preacher – are they a Christian.

“manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus� —again, what does this mean?

What “qualities of Jesus� must be manifested in order to be a Christian?

If a non-religious person “manifests the qualities of Jesus�, are they a Christian? Let’s say they are an exemplary person in every way, very “Christ like�, but do not worship “god� or Jesus or even think they exist – are they Christian? It seems as though they meet #3 definition.

People can raise their hand as a Christian for many reasons. The Bible states:

Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.

Does that mean that “anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says� is going to hell? Does it mean that they are not Christian?

It would appear to me, a resident of the Bible Belt who associates with Christians on an everyday basis and knows many of them quite well, that the vast majority who think of themselves as Christians are evidently not Christians at all (according to that requirement) and are headed for hell. Is that correct?

But wait, don’t you say that as long as a person accepts Jesus as savior they are “saved�? There is no need for any of my Christian friends to “follow the teachings of Jesus� because they already earned their ticket to heaven by simply “accepting Jesus as savior�. Right?

It is no wonder that some Christians I encounter are downright crooked, deceitful, hateful people. It doesn’t matter how they act, because by simply “accepting Jesus as savior� they are granted “eternal bliss� – while a truly exemplary or noble person who doesn’t accept Jesus is assured of “damnation� (or whatever). Is that correct?

Do those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus “get extra points� in heaven (since following his teachings is not required for “salvation� – only “accept Jesus as savior�)?

If you could compare the crime statistics of those "following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ" to the rest of humanity, I would expect that subset of "Christians" to have a lower rate of criminality. My only proof is that I have known such Christians in my life.

Are you saying that Christians can become thieves, rapists and murderers (all of which are considered “sins�, I presume) and doing so does NOT “control our salvation�?

I would hope it would be reversed. That is, thieves, rapists and murderers can become Christians. But yes, I suspose that stated your way it is still true. Our salvation under the New Testament is based on accepting Jesus as our Savior from sin.

What you appear to be saying is that as long as a person “accepts Jesus as savior� they can do anything they choose and still be “saved�. Is that correct?

How does that relate to “definition #3� above? Surely, a person who is a thief, rapist or murderer is NOT “following the teachings of Jesus�, right? They are certainly not “manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus. Right?

Are they still a Christian as long as they have “accepted Jesus as savior�?

Does that mean that a serial murderer can count on “salvation� provided that he “accepts Christ as his savior� and asks forgiveness?

Yes.

WAIT A MINUTE. Didn’t you quote James 1:26 above to say that if a person doesn’t hold their tongue their religion is worthless? Now you are saying that a serial killer is granted salvation (so his religion obviously must not be worthless).

Is it just me, or does that seem contradictory, inconsistent and irrational??????

According to what you are saying now, the ONLY requirement for “salvation� is accepting Jesus as savior. His teachings, such as, “Love thy neighbor as thyself� are purely opional if one is actually free to rob, rape or kill the neighbor instead of loving them -- and still be “saved�. Right?

Thus, the “commandments� are only suggestions – and doing exactly the opposite does not incur penalty. Right?

Thus, the vaulted “Christian ethics� are not binding on Christians. They are nice to talk about, but need not be followed or respected – and one still goes to heaven if they accept Jesus as savior. Right?


Questions for debate:

1. Does the religious position expressed above appear to be consistent?

2. Is it representative of Christianity in general?

3. Does it reflect the position of certain sects within Christianity? If so, what sects?

[Flail]

Questions for debate:

1. Does the religious position expressed above appear to be consistent?

2. Is it representative of Christianity in general?

3. Does it reflect the position of certain sects within Christianity? If so, what sects?

According to most Christians I have engaged in conversation regarding these questions, one must absolutely and without question 'believe' that Jesus was the Messiah...God incarnate...the Trinity. If they do not believe this, it is not possible to have 'sins' forgiven or to have eternal salvation. To these 'Christians', those who profess to follow Jesus teachings but do not have an absolute belief that Jesus is God incarnate are doomed to hell(or perhaps purgatory). This seems to be the philosophy of Paul but not of Jesus. Jesus seemed to be more about living for others thru action and conduct;Paul seemed to be more about living for self, to gain personal salvation and forgiveness of sin thru membership and ritual.

[myth-one.com]

A person who believes in Jesus will try to follow the teachings or manifest the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ. Jesus set the example for us to follow. Neither belonging to a church (definition 1) nor performing Christian rites (definition 2) saves anyone.

But all of us fail to meet the perfect example set by Jesus. Could some concievably slip to becomming thieves, rapists and murderers as you suggest? Perhaps.

Does that mean that a serial murderer can count on “salvation� provided that he “accepts Christ as his savior� and asks forgiveness?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

I do not see where serial murderers are prevented from salvation -- whosoever seems to be all inclusive.

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revelers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (I Corinthians 6:9-10)

It is true that no murderers, fornicators . . . etc . . .will enter the Kingdom of God. But after presenting a list of sinners which cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, the next verse goes on to state:

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (I Corinthians 6:11)

While there will be no murderers, thieves, fornicators, drunkards, etc, in the Kingdom of God; there will be angels who were formerly murderers, thieves, fornicators, drunkards, etc, as humans on the earth. Paul and David were both murderers. Paul persecuted Christians to their death and David had Uriah killed. How does the Bible indicate that Christians will enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3)

This does not mean small as a baby, helpless, etc. It means sinless. Christians will be converted from physical to spiritual bodies and become as little children once again. You start with a clean slate. God wipes away your sins committed as a human. The wages for these sins have already been paid. Thanks to Jesus, you inherit eternal life as a spirit with a clean record.

Do not assume for a moment that humans get a free ride by believing in Jesus. That is, one can do whatever he pleases, then accept Jesus and get a clean slate without consequences. We reap the rewards of our sins here on earth. These may include prison time, jail, fear of detection, guilt, venereal disease, shame, lost opportunities, divorce, low self-esteem; and the list goes on, and on, and on.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 3:

Noting the OP seems to ask about the consistency moreso than literal accuracy or truth...

I have come to respect myth-one's take on the Bible, and agree in principle that his post seems accurate according to my amateur understand of what the Bible may be getting at. I just couldn't allow the post to go without an informal challenge to the literal truth of what is presented. I'll leave the challenge for the observer to consider, unless someone seeks to present it as literal truth - again noting the nature of the OP.

[Adamoriens]

This does not mean small as a baby, helpless, etc. It means sinless. Christians will be converted from physical to spiritual bodies and become as little children once again. You start with a clean slate. God wipes away your sins committed as a human. The wages for these sins have already been paid. Thanks to Jesus, you inherit eternal life as a spirit with a clean record.

The verse says that "except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." You interpret this to mean that the conversion (from physical to spiritual bodies) will occur after death, and yet by necessity before entry into the kingdom of heaven. Is there an interim period, a sort of purgatory?

It seems to me more reasonable to interpret it as a conversion happening before death, not after, especially since he is addressing his apostles in context. It is an instruction to become like children, not a exposition of what will happen when a Christian life ends. And if Jesus is teaching that one should become as a small child, then a conversion after death is impossible since there is (as far as my understanding of doctrine goes) no such thing as a postmortem choice, or postmortem free will.

Do not assume for a moment that humans get a free ride by believing in Jesus. That is, one can do whatever he pleases, then accept Jesus and get a clean slate without consequences. We reap the rewards of our sins here on earth. These may include prison time, jail, fear of detection, guilt, venereal disease, shame, lost opportunities, divorce, low self-esteem; and the list goes on, and on, and on.

This is an evasion. You have just said that murderers, rapists, etc. can pass into heaven if they believe and attempt to emulate Jesus: therefore it is true that humans do get a free ride by believing in Jesus, earthly punishment notwithstanding. Let me illustrate.

Suppose you have a person who died after just committing a heinous act. He/she might not even have had time to repent. But if he/she has has previously accepted the Holy Spirit, and despite all efforts to conform to Jesus' moral code fails (and kills a family etc. use your imagination), then there is no reason to think that he/she hasn't just got a free ride into heaven. There is no justice in this world or the next, since the proximity of the crime to the criminal's death prevents earthly punishment, and the criminal's sincere belief in Jesus thwarts justice in the afterlife. Thus, a free ride.

[Vanguard]

Great commentary, Adamoriens, and welcome to the forum. I am interested in this topic though it appears we run the risk of venturing too far afield of the parameters as set forth for this particular sub-forum. Nonetheless and as j-knuc has suggested, the literal accuracy of such claims may have to be suspended in order to proceed with the exchange. It is in this light that I offer up my opinions...
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myth-one.com stated: "This does not mean small as a baby, helpless, etc. It means sinless. Christians will be converted from physical to spiritual bodies and become as little children once again. You start with a clean slate. God wipes away your sins committed as a human. The wages for these sins have already been paid. Thanks to Jesus, you inherit eternal life as a spirit with a clean record."

Adamoriens responded: "The verse says that "except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." You interpret this to mean that the conversion (from physical to spiritual bodies) will occur after death, and yet by necessity before entry into the kingdom of heaven. Is there an interim period, a sort of purgatory?"

Biblical passages are replete with directives for the humankind to strive for. It just so happens that after all is said and done the reality of our lives - in varying degrees - falls short of the mark as measured against the ideal Christ taught. IMO, this scriptural passage is no exception. The ideal as put out there by Christ is for us to strive to become as little children (largely defined as myth-one.com has suggested) though the end result will by necessity look different for each of us hence rendering it impossible to know whether one has indeed become like a little child. It is the end result - after taking into account all the temporal restrictions one is encumbered with - that will determine whether one has done enough in approximating his reality with the ideal. This is determined once we no longer have an opportunity to reach any further (read: death).
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It seems to me more reasonable to interpret it as a conversion happening before death, not after, especially since he is addressing his apostles in context. It is an instruction to become like children, not a exposition of what will happen when a Christian life ends. And if Jesus is teaching that one should become as a small child, then a conversion after death is impossible since there is (as far as my understanding of doctrine goes) no such thing as a postmortem choice, or postmortem free will.

I agree with this. Furthermore, any post-mortem acceptance of the Savior's role is reduced to formality when measured against what the individual did with what was given him in this temporality.
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myth-one.com stated: "Do not assume for a moment that humans get a free ride by believing in Jesus. That is, one can do whatever he pleases, then accept Jesus and get a clean slate without consequences. We reap the rewards of our sins here on earth. These may include prison time, jail, fear of detection, guilt, venereal disease, shame, lost opportunities, divorce, low self-esteem; and the list goes on, and on, and on."

Adamoriens responded: "This is an evasion. You have just said that murderers, rapists, etc. can pass into heaven if they believe and attempt to emulate Jesus: therefore it is true that humans do get a free ride by believing in Jesus, earthly punishment notwithstanding. Let me illustrate.

Suppose you have a person who died after just committing a heinous act. He/she might not even have had time to repent. But if he/she has has previously accepted the Holy Spirit, and despite all efforts to conform to Jesus' moral code fails (and kills a family etc. use your imagination), then there is no reason to think that he/she hasn't just got a free ride into heaven. There is no justice in this world or the next, since the proximity of the crime to the criminal's death prevents earthly punishment, and the criminal's sincere belief in Jesus thwarts justice in the afterlife. Thus, a free ride."

I agree. The person's actions are not the determinant but rather his capacity to act and how much he strived to reach this capacity. I don't see how it could be any other way.
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Note: Help! I can't remember how to quote more than one person with their names included! That's what happens when you mix a computer illiterate and his desire to visit mulitple different web-sites all with different rules for quoting!

Geeesh, I'm worse than a newbie!

[Adamoriens]

Great commentary, Adamoriens, and welcome to the forum.

Hello, Vanguard, and thank you. I have to say (hopefully without offence) I'm surprised to see a practicing Mormon active in this forum, given that the dominant demographic attacks even mainstream Christianity with relish... and now I've abandoned my adherence to the OP.

[myth-one.com]

This does not mean small as a baby, helpless, etc. It means sinless. Christians will be converted from physical to spiritual bodies and become as little children once again. You start with a clean slate. God wipes away your sins committed as a human. The wages for these sins have already been paid. Thanks to Jesus, you inherit eternal life as a spirit with a clean record.

The verse says that "except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." You interpret this to mean that the conversion (from physical to spiritual bodies) will occur after death, and yet by necessity before entry into the kingdom of heaven. Is there an interim period, a sort of purgatory?

The Bible describes two types of beings, physical and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Each of these body types requires a different birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Being born again into the Kingdom of God is a two-step process. The first step is to be born as a flesh and blood natural bodied human being:

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)

Mankind is the only animal which can possibly enter the Kingdom of God because it involves making a choice. So the first step to becoming a member of the Kingdom of God is to be born as a flesh and blood man or woman. However, man cannot enter the Kingdom of God in his original flesh and blood body:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Corinthians 15:50)

If man is born as a flesh and blood natural body, and must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God because his flesh and blood cannot enter that kingdom, then man must be born that second time as a spiritual body. Spiritual bodies live for eternity. This is the everlasting life promised to believers in John 3:16. When men and women die, they are simply dead and eventually return to dust. There is no consciousness, purgatory, heaven, or hell. They know and are aware of nothing:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Deceased Christians will be resurrected to everlasting spiritual life when born again as spiritual beings at the Second Coming of Christ:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected or made alive. The group that will be resurrected next are all dead Christians, they that are Christ's, which will be resurrected at the Second Coming, or at His coming. Describing these born again Christians, the Bible states:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

Christians become "children of the resurrection." That is, they are born at the resurrection. They were born once before in their existence, their physical birth. Since Christians are born a second time as a spiritual being at the resurrection, they are born again! It is an actual, real experience, not simply some emotional occurrence experienced during your physical life on earth. They are the spiritual newborn children of God as the following verse states:

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3)

Suppose you have a person who died after just committing a heinous act. He/she might not even have had time to repent. But if he/she has has previously accepted the Holy Spirit, and despite all efforts to conform to Jesus' moral code fails (and kills a family etc. use your imagination), then there is no reason to think that he/she hasn't just got a free ride into heaven. There is no justice in this world or the next, since the proximity of the crime to the criminal's death prevents earthly punishment, and the criminal's sincere belief in Jesus thwarts justice in the afterlife. Thus, a free ride.

Under the New Testament covenant Jesus lived a sinless life, then gave his life as payment for our sins if we accept Him as our Savior. So there are no free rides or passes. One must accept Jesus as their Savior. That is the only path to salvation.

Your "murderer" falls under the same rules as all mankind. If he believes in Jesus as his Savior, he will inherit everlasting life. I would still suggest that he/she suffered on earth if he reached the point of committing murder. Much energy, time, and effort can be wasted on hatred.

[Adamoriens]

I don't object to your theology. I object to you dredging the Bible for passages that support your theology. You'll notice I commented only on Matthew 18:3, which I still maintain is decidedly not about spiritual reincarnation, but rather an instruction from Jesus to take on the spirit or attitude of a small child. I hope I haven't got this wrong.

Under the New Testament covenant Jesus lived a sinless life, then gave his life as payment for our sins if we accept Him as our Savior. So there are no free rides or passes. One must accept Jesus as their Savior. That is the only path to salvation.

Your "murderer" falls under the same rules as all mankind. If he believes in Jesus as his Savior, he will inherit everlasting life. I would still suggest that he/she suffered on earth if he reached the point of committing murder. Much energy, time, and effort can be wasted on hatred.

Do not redefine "free ride." In an earlier post you state:

Do not assume for a moment that humans get a free ride by believing in Jesus. That is, one can do whatever he pleases, then accept Jesus and get a clean slate without consequences. We reap the rewards of our sins here on earth. These may include prison time, jail, fear of detection, guilt, venereal disease, shame, lost opportunities, divorce, low self-esteem; and the list goes on, and on, and on.

Therefore, if one suffers few or none of these consequences, one could enter heaven bearing little or no retributive justice: it's a free ride. Before, free rides meant no earthly consequences, now you define it out of existence by stating that belief in Jesus is itself not free. Pick one: which is it?

Your "murderer" falls under the same rules as all mankind. If he believes in Jesus as his Savior, he will inherit everlasting life. I would still suggest that he/she suffered on earth if he reached the point of committing murder. Much energy, time, and effort can be wasted on hatred.

Not all murders are inspired by hate. Not all suffering is retributive justice (after all, the suffering that would cause a person to murder is not a consequence of the act). Murderers can escape the earthly consequences for their actions. Murderers can go to heaven. Grasp this, and you'll understand why some object to the Christian scheme of salvation.

Since salvation occurs irrespective of whether one deserves retributive justice, it seems that any ultimate justice is simply happenstance. Grasp this, and you'll understand why some struggle with the problem of evil.

But I've ignored the incalculable personal suffering that sincere repentance brings. Perhaps you'd like to resolve the salvation/ultimate- justice dilemma by that road?

[Adamoriens]

To continue in what should probably be a new topic:

The idea of salvation of grace, completely free of retributive justice, is both morally abhorrent and unbelievable beautiful. Rarely do we have moral gag-reflex and transcendent tearful joy so close together.

If you are a murderer or rapist, or are downfallen in any way, then in the Christian scheme you deserve retributive punishment. But there is a way out- the redeeming figure of Christ. The fact that a murderer can escape divine wrath is a source of disgust for the morally upright, and a beacon of hope for murderers everywhere. Since Christianity has always taught that all are equal to murderers in the eyes of God (we are all downfallen), it has been a beacon of hope for the religiously convicted rather than a source of disgust. The only time this perception is shaken seems to be when something catastrophically horrible happens to a loved one etc., and it seems possible that the perpetrator could get away with in the afterlife.