The ulimate sacrifice

[Misty]

When someone is said to have made the ulimate sacrifice it suggests they have knowingly laid down their life for family, friends, country or a cause. If you believe the story to be true, Jesus supposedly laid down his life for the 'sins' of the world. The difference between the ulimate sacrifice of Jesus, and that of others is they laid down their lives knowing they would stay dead. Jesus laid down his life presumably knowing after three days he would pop up again. Whilst the death of Jesus was nasty and painful, many others have suffered as bad, if not worse, deaths proceeded by horrific torture lasting weeks sometimes. I think the selfless sacrifice of a mere human is much more praiseworthy than that of a supposed divine entity.

[ChaosBorders]

According to scripture, Jesus gave up the position of being with god in order to slum with the humans and offer himself as a sacrifice. How many humans have ever had that kind of a status to give up?

He didn't give it up for long, 33 years to be exact!

Conceivably an all knowing being may well experience all things that occur during its 'lifespan' as if happening concurrently. In which case what is important is not the length of time pain was physically experienced, but rather that God is willing to experience pain at all on our behalf.

I doubt any deity would want to suffer pain, the whole idea of Jesus dying for our 'sins' seems a very human, and not very credible concept to me.

The alternative is that God/Jesus didn't want to suffer pain... which means he wasn't powerful enough to do what he wanted (or stop what he didn't want)

Or that his inherent nature dictated a course of action that required pain. Wanting something and finding it to be necessary are two very seperate things. Just because you have the power to do what you want doesn't mean you will.

Hmm... I think the idea of omnipotence, or a reasonable facsimile, is that there is a way to get what you want, how and when you want it.

After all, God could have blown up Earth in 4000 BC and taken everyone to Heaven then, but he obviously chose, or allowed a path that led to pain being inflicted on him - through the crucifixtion, or via the supposed suffering he feels as people continue to be born (which means more and more sin offends his senses).

Look at the wiki on Omnipotence for the varying philisophical definitions of the concept. Most accept the possibility of some forms of constraint.

[Cathar1950]

Look at the wiki on Omnipotence for the varying philisophical definitions of the concept. Most accept the possibility of some forms of constraint.

I recall arguing some 33 years ago that God didn't know the future except as possibility, and limited possibility, as it hasn't happened yet even for God. There is a difference between possibility and actuality.
God had all contingent knowledge knowing both now and the past eternally and fully. God doesn't make the laws of physics but understands them. God doesn't great the good as much as God would recognize it fully.
Same with power, God would have enough power and a different idea of power.

There are many views concerning the all-powerful, all knowing God and there is no reason we should let them decide how God must be.
But I am partial to a more natural theology.

I like the idea that God is enriched by creation and experience is enough to justify existence. We are here or I am here is pretty cool, as Grumpy says the rest is gravy.
But then I have a pretty good, as good goes, memories of good worthy experiences that out weigh the bad ones.
Some don't.

It would seem God being the most ultimate relative beneficiary of all experience enjoys not only creation but the good of his creatures.\

What is the ultimate sacrifice seems to be what we see as the ultimate value
It seems at best we have many purposes and values as the relate what we see as good. The good is relative and shared as it is shaped by our experiences and shared reality. We experience good and evil as it shapes or conception which are socially shared.

I recall reading where the first views of Jesus' death were that of a martyr in the Maccabean sense and that being raised to God right hand was his vindication before he was seen as some kind of sacrifice in the vague way those that see his death as some payment or necessary requirement to appease God.
It was his faithfulness, that lead even to death, that was the point, not his death.
They were saved by being his body as they were faithful.
It was faithfulness that saved them not some sacrifice.
I like the ancient idea that sacrifice was communion with the gods, the dead and of life even with God and a celebration. Worship is doing that what we are created to do and it seems we were created to create and share meaning with others as we try to pass on the best to the next generation.

I like the idea of God being the shared experience and value of living good with others and our universe.Be excellent and splened to your self and to each other and party on!