The rights of an unborn fetus

[WinePusher]

Abortion is probably the most contreversial issue in World, everybody has their own opinion about it. Most christians are opposed to the practice mainly because of their religious beliefs, but I would like to point out Christopher Hitchens opposes Abortion on purely secular and scientific terms. Questions for disscussion

1) Which is more important, the life of the child or the choice of the mother?

2) Couldn't abortion eventually lead to the practice of infanticide?

3) Does the father of the child have any voice?

4) Do parents have any say if their under age teenage daughter wishes to have an abortion.

[bernee51]

These alleged child abusers and molestors should be charged and prosecuted according to the federal laws and statutes of the country in which they inhabit. It's the job of the courts to decide these matters.

Agreed..bu ttjhis is closing the syable door etc.

Who is regulating this. Self-regulation has not worked.

How do you propose it (the safety of children in orphanges) be monitored?

Abortion is not killing babies.

That is your opinion, by no means is that scientific fact.

It is a legal fact.

would know the difference between an baby and a foetus.

Please tell a mother who feels her child kicking in her womb that it is not a baby.

That is a subjective opinion.

At conception, the genetic code and DNA is determined once the ovary and the sperm meet. That is not a fact, once the males sperm and females ovary meet, the genetic code for the child is determined. I repeat this for emphasis that this is not conjecture, it is a FACT. If you do not think that moment constitutes life, please tell me when it does.

Human life?

When brain activity starts, might be a good guideline.

1) Abortion is the termination of a fetus that is not a viable life and abortion does not constitute "baby killing"

Correct

2) Woman get abortions because they feel it is there only option, and or, they have the right over their body.

That may be the reasons, there may be others.

3) Abortion, in your opinion, should be limited and made fewer, not on the grounds that a fetus is an actual life, but rather because it is harmful to the mother. So"
-Abortions should be made fewer because it harms the mother, not because the fetus is an actual life.

Abortion has the potential to be harmful to the mother.

4) you expicitly stated that abortions do psychologically and physically harm the mother.

I did not.

5) Thus, abortion is harmful to the mothers health.

It has the potential to be.

I have met women who have had no apparent physical or psychological post effects – I hav met women who have been traumatized by it.

Stigmatization by those who would call these women, who are often making a difficult choice, as ‘baby killers’ does not help in this.

I will not playcoat this issue. I will call it as it is, baby killing.

And you are mistaken in both law and biology.

If you don’t hold abortion to be morally right – that is your choice. Those who chose to undergo a legal procedure have made their own choice. What right do you have to interfere in their choice?

Let us again apply this logic to another situation.

1) I believe it is immoral to beat up diabled/handicapped people.

2) Chuck goes and beats up a disabled/handicapped person.

3) I witness this event, but on your logic, I should not interfere with Chuck's choice to beat up a homeless person.

4) However, The disabled/handicapped person as no voice and cannot defend him or herself.

5) Therefore I am obliged as a HUMAN BEING to interfere and stop this atrocity.

What a beautiful example of a straw man argument.

Bashing anybody is illegal, abortion is not.

[Chuck_G]

What a beautiful example of a straw man argument.

Not to mention I would never beat up a homeless guy.

[chris_brown207]

First, they always tout adoption as being the proposed alternative to abortion. That sounds great on paper - but I have yet to meet more than a handful of Pro-Lifers who have actually adopted. Their numbers are miniscule, compared to those who oppose abortion in all forms.

Just because YOU have only met a handful of Pro Lifers that don't adopt doesn't mean they don't. Perhaps a substantiating statistic might prove this claim rather than a citation of personal experience.

I formed this opinion after meeting and asking many in the Pro-Life crowd... so have YOU adopted??? I am betting by your sarcasm that you haven't. How convenient of you - to offer that "solution" even though you have made no effort of your own (besides making snide moral damnations) to care for those unwanted children.

And the fact that even though 40% of Americans support adoption, but there are still each year over 134,000 children who have to enter foster care should tell you something... http://statistics.adoption.com/informat ... stics.html

You would think someone who is all about "Life" would actually care about these unwanted fetuses AFTER they are born.

So, we should kill a babies because it may have a tough life in the future?

No, we should allow the mother to make her own choice about that (and for the record, there is nothing (not even the bible) which supports your case that a fetus (especially in the first and second trimesters) is a baby.

The foster care system cannot handle the cases it has now, while abortion is legal... how can they possibly handle it if it were made illegal.

Is their any evidence to show that the foster care system is doind poorly? I think it's better to allow a child to be borned and allow it to live and experience life for themselves. What makes you, or any abortion doctor or mother qualifyed to decide whether a fetus should be killed or not just because you think their future life may be unplesant?

Yes, the fact that every year more than 134,000 children are forced to enter the foster care system despite all the people (like you) that are "for" adoption... http://statistics.adoption.com/informat ... stics.html

And even if they are placed in a troubled family, they are more likely to fare better in life than if they were placed in foster care. Foster children have high rates of drug abuse, crime, and institutionalization...

Not to mention the many document negative results of children growing up in foster care systems - the high rate of drug use, crime, and institutionalization.

Can you offer any sources that could back up this claim?

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Children_i ... 32007.html
(Among many others that any educated adult would have no trouble finding on the web if they bothered looking at the other side of an issue.)

Second, they refer to abortion as "murder". However, there is no scientific evidence to support that the fetus is a fully independent human being during the first and the second trimester. It is not even able to survive outside the womb until the third trimester... It would seem that most (not all) Pro-Lifers are basing their positions on religious contexts, or "gut feelings"

Is it not true that abortion prevents a potential fetus from achieving "human status?"

It is NOT true that abortion prevents a fetus from achieving "human status" if the mother never intended for it to achieve such status (which would be why she is choosing to have an abortion).

Can you tell us when life actually begins then.

No, however we know without a doubt when the fetus is able to support itself independently of the womb - and that doesn't occur until well in the 3rd trimester. We also know when the fetus has functioning brain waves, and that occurs again well into the 3rd trimester. I have no trouble at all forming a conclusion that a fetus in the first trimester, and even probably well into the second, is still a very dependent part of the women's body.

So where is your evidence that it is a person? According to the bible, the fetus is not even afforded the same value as an adult (According to Exodus 21:22). And there are many instances of the god of the bible calling for the sacrifice of pregnant women (Hosea 13:16).

So can you prove that a fetus IS a person???

and with the 1st Amendment, and a rational government, neither of these are reasons to be creating policy.

Tell me where the right to an abortion is mentioned in the constitution.

In the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson specifically mentions a GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO LIFE that is natural and unalienable. Where is the Right To Kill An Unborn Child mentioned in the Constitution or any of the founding documents?

Yes, that all MEN have a right to life... you have yet to prove that a fetus is a person - man or woman.

[BwhoUR]

Abortion is probably the most contreversial issue in World, everybody has their own opinion about it. Most christians are opposed to the practice mainly because of their religious beliefs, but I would like to point out Christopher Hitchens opposes Abortion on purely secular and scientific terms. Questions for disscussion

1) Which is more important, the life of the child or the choice of the mother?.

Both are important, however the choice of the woman to become a mother or not is hers alone and the way she chooses that, abortion or adoption, is also hers alone. Her egg, her body, her 'mistake', her consequences.

2) Couldn't abortion eventually lead to the practice of infanticide?.

No, post-partum depression can.

3) Does the father of the child have any voice?.

Yes, as long as he says, "Whatever you want, honey, I'm with you."

4) Do parents have any say if their under age teenage daughter wishes to have an abortion.

Only to say that they will support the teenager's decision and to give her all the options possible. You don't have the right to decide how someone else must live their life.

If we started teaching our children about sex, birth control, pregnancy and masterbation early, we would decrease the amount of abortions performed, period. A lot of pro-choice people are also anti-birth control, this is a ridiculous position if you really care about reducing unwanted pregnancies.

Furthermore, if a woman desires an abortion and can't get one early in the pregnancy, the hormones and feelings associated with the pregnancy, as well as an increase in her support system, can change her mind about aborting the embryo or fetus. If it doesn't, that woman should probably not carry to term.

Christopher Hitchens is definitely pro-choice, but he would not outlaw abortion, he does not think that every egg and sperm is a baby, he does however, appear to have a soft heart for the growing embryo and believes that technology can create a bias "in favor of life" thus reducing a woman's desire to end the pregnancy. I believe that happens naturally or as I said above, if it doesn't, the woman isn't ready to be a mother and should be free to seek an abortion.