The world is in a fallen state.
Few can argue against that.
Even atheists realize things are not ideal, and use the mess around us to argue against the existence of a loving God.
Those who believe in God are all eager to understand and contribute to restoring this world, this mess, to a state of wholeness and beauty.
From where I stand, and the years I have journeyed I see it like this.
1. Those into spirituality, but not biblical Christianity, when developed beyond wanting to use spiritual principles to enrich themselves, eventually come to a place of wanting to live for the greater good of all.
They want to spend their lives and energies in such a way as to work about redemption, the development of the human race into a higher state of existence.
Their methods: meditation, unselfish thoughts (prayers) and various other spiritual processes. Mass meditation being one, in order to stop wars etc.
2. Those into biblical Christianity, who have developed to a point of wanting to be part of something bigger themselves, I, me and myself, are also keen to see God's redemption plan being rolled out.
Here I would categorise 3 main streams.
I. Those in cult groups that does not believe any level of salvation comes by grace through faith (Pauline doctrine) and strive exclusively through their "good works" to impress God.
They claim to be Christian but reject the fundamental message of the New Testament, and is thus no different in essence from type 1 above.
II. Those who believe they are spiritually saved by grace through faith, who believes in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross, but who wants to accomplish other levels of salvation, such as healing, deliverance, prosperity and peace, through self efforts (self righteousness).
These formulas they are forever running towards to work about God's redemptive purposes can for example be love acts.
Or for those in the Word of Faith movement, it could be by emphasising sowing and reaping, which could entail confessions, fasting, speaking long times in tongues, loud bible reading for hours, long prayers, etc.
All in the effort to give some umph to God's redemptive purposes through their spiritual contributions, which they package as "sowing".
They strive towards a combination of Biblical New Testament Christianity and spirituality (1 above). They dilute the message of the cross, and contaminate it with self-righteousness.
III. And then there are those who found their identity in Christ, as sons of the most High, who live from John 17 oneness with God,
and who understands that God does all the redemption through Christ. We can add nothing. But by walking before God day by day, abiding in Him, receiving His love daily, we can access the wealth of the Kingdom, by simply understanding our inheritance as sons of God. By nothing we can do. But due to everything He has done. Which we joyfully receive in thanksgiving.
When we "get this" it becomes a journey about being, and in being, we walk into our redemptive purposes. For God has a redemptive purpose for every individual, every family, every nation, every continent. It is something that needs to be lived, from a place of being, in Christ, it is not something that needs to be accomplished, yet God's entire redemption plan will start to materialize, as people start resting and being in Christ, walking before God, day by day.
Christianity is not complicated. It is so simple. We have complicated the gospel to death. And it's not.
I see God's redemptive purposes only to be established in Christ (see 2III above). Our self-righteousness, our human efforts to complete His redemption plan, apart from the sacrifice of His Son, is to God like filthy menstrual cloths.
God is merciful now and forever. He never changes. It is my conviction currently, that this redemptive plan of God will not stop until every living being is reconciled back to God, as per God's great plan in Ephesians 1.
I do believe in a hell, but not an eternal one. The Greek word "aion" was incorrectly translated to eternal in english, whereas it isn't. Else there wouldn't be something like aions (plural).
(See also Rev 5:13)
Redemption
Moderator: Moderators
John 1:6-13
Post #11There was a man sent from God,
whose name was John.
This man came for a witness, to bear witness to the Light,
that all through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
He was in the world,
and the world was made through Him,
and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him,
to them He gave the right to become children of God,
to those who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.
whose name was John.
This man came for a witness, to bear witness to the Light,
that all through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
He was in the world,
and the world was made through Him,
and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him,
to them He gave the right to become children of God,
to those who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.
Post #12
Note to the Christians:
I want to emphasize that it is not wrong for Christians to read the bible, to pray, to speak in tongues and to do everything to align their mindsets and beliefs with that of God, in humble submission and to wait on God humbly.
Indeed we need the mind of Christ, godly mindsets, to operate more effectively in the Kingdom of God.
Yet when we do this as part of a "works program" to help God out in His redemptive purposes and plan, as if we self-righteously can contribute, like in many of the sowing-reaping Christian teachings proclaimed, we are falling away from grace.
I want to emphasize that it is not wrong for Christians to read the bible, to pray, to speak in tongues and to do everything to align their mindsets and beliefs with that of God, in humble submission and to wait on God humbly.
Indeed we need the mind of Christ, godly mindsets, to operate more effectively in the Kingdom of God.
Yet when we do this as part of a "works program" to help God out in His redemptive purposes and plan, as if we self-righteously can contribute, like in many of the sowing-reaping Christian teachings proclaimed, we are falling away from grace.
Star of the morning
Post #13Jesus as well as Lucifer is referred to as morning star in the bible.
It is because they are both bringers of light.
The light Jesus brings and the light Lucifer brings is not the same however.
Lucifarian illuminism and Godly illuminism produces contrasting results.
In Christ we live to the glory of God. Lucifarian illuminism, is behind the spirit of the anti-christ, which is already in this world, and introduces gnostic ideas, that would want us to live for our own glory, as if we ourselves are god.
The light of Lucifer is like a black whole (black star). It draws all within. It doesn't radiate the glory of God.
We changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man.
We have all sinned and falls short of the glory of God.
Therefore we need a Redeemer.
And only Jesus Christ, the perfect One, could become that Redeemer for us.
And therefore the gospel is all about Redemption.
All about glory.
And all about a God of love, that saved us by grace through faith.
Through Jesus Christ, who IS the Truth, and the only qualified one,
being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.
-------
Taken this as stated above as the Gospel message of Christianity, the following would be very valid questions from unbelievers in response.
And to be quite frank, I don't have the answers yet, and am still wresting with God.
1. If Moses radiated the glory of God so much after having a face to face encounter with God, and that was under the law, which was an inferior covenant, to such an extend he radiated, that he needed to put a veil before his face for the sake of the people then:
I. Why aren't Christians meeting with God daily like this and radiating physical light in like (or even more radiating) manner? I mean Moses was a friend of God, but we are sons of God, and a child is supposed to see the face of his Father close up, if it is any healthy normal growing up relationship. Which Father would hide his face from his own son?
II. Why didn't Paul, who talked about this very thing, radiate light and glory so much, that it would be unmistakable to the Jews and Romans who persecuted him, that he was a bearer of a godly message? Did he veil himself? If so why? Did he not veil himself? Then why is he talking with authority about things he is not living - would that not be considered hypocritical?
All I can gather is that the inheritance of the saints is to radiate such light, I believe even our very blood is supposed to become the light of God, as was with Adam and Eve, yet we are not living in this inheritance. We are eating the crumps and not from the Fathers table, and somehow I think it is because we are not beholding Him fully, like the moon can only reflect the light of the son to the extend that it is turned to the son, and the bible says that as we behold Him, we are changed from one degree of glory to another.
So the question to Christians is this, how can we turn ourselves more, to behold the face of the One, that is the express image, of the glory of the Father.
Worship would be one way.
But yet again, worship is to be in spirit and in truth.
And if one do not see correctly, how can you worship in Truth.
Then you will only worship your concept or construct of God.
And thus it is a catch 22 situation.
Which brings us yet again to our absolute dependancy on the grace of God.
How do we overcome this and walk into the fullness of our inheritance in Christ, to live in the fullness of the glory, that is our destiny and portion in Christ?
Out of His fullness we have received, grace upon grace, spiritual blessing upon spiritual blessing, favor upon favor and gift heaped upon gift. But what does all that help us if we do not know how to access it?
What does the entire sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the richness of what He as Redeemer purchased for us, the lost glroy He resotred back to us, if we fail to access it?
Most people have no clue what is available. So it doesn't even bother them.
Others have started seeing, but yet haven't accessed it yet, and experience such frustration.
Yet there are those who have started, barely started accessing these things.
It isn't a formula however.
And until we the Redeemed have access it, the world will continue arguing and debating and we will have nothing but a bunch of theories and concepts to answer them unless we start radiating that glory for ourselves.
A light should not be put under a bucket that dims it. Jesus commanded us to shine.
It is because they are both bringers of light.
The light Jesus brings and the light Lucifer brings is not the same however.
Lucifarian illuminism and Godly illuminism produces contrasting results.
In Christ we live to the glory of God. Lucifarian illuminism, is behind the spirit of the anti-christ, which is already in this world, and introduces gnostic ideas, that would want us to live for our own glory, as if we ourselves are god.
The light of Lucifer is like a black whole (black star). It draws all within. It doesn't radiate the glory of God.
We changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man.
We have all sinned and falls short of the glory of God.
Therefore we need a Redeemer.
And only Jesus Christ, the perfect One, could become that Redeemer for us.
And therefore the gospel is all about Redemption.
All about glory.
And all about a God of love, that saved us by grace through faith.
Through Jesus Christ, who IS the Truth, and the only qualified one,
being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.
-------
Taken this as stated above as the Gospel message of Christianity, the following would be very valid questions from unbelievers in response.
And to be quite frank, I don't have the answers yet, and am still wresting with God.
1. If Moses radiated the glory of God so much after having a face to face encounter with God, and that was under the law, which was an inferior covenant, to such an extend he radiated, that he needed to put a veil before his face for the sake of the people then:
I. Why aren't Christians meeting with God daily like this and radiating physical light in like (or even more radiating) manner? I mean Moses was a friend of God, but we are sons of God, and a child is supposed to see the face of his Father close up, if it is any healthy normal growing up relationship. Which Father would hide his face from his own son?
II. Why didn't Paul, who talked about this very thing, radiate light and glory so much, that it would be unmistakable to the Jews and Romans who persecuted him, that he was a bearer of a godly message? Did he veil himself? If so why? Did he not veil himself? Then why is he talking with authority about things he is not living - would that not be considered hypocritical?
All I can gather is that the inheritance of the saints is to radiate such light, I believe even our very blood is supposed to become the light of God, as was with Adam and Eve, yet we are not living in this inheritance. We are eating the crumps and not from the Fathers table, and somehow I think it is because we are not beholding Him fully, like the moon can only reflect the light of the son to the extend that it is turned to the son, and the bible says that as we behold Him, we are changed from one degree of glory to another.
So the question to Christians is this, how can we turn ourselves more, to behold the face of the One, that is the express image, of the glory of the Father.
Worship would be one way.
But yet again, worship is to be in spirit and in truth.
And if one do not see correctly, how can you worship in Truth.
Then you will only worship your concept or construct of God.
And thus it is a catch 22 situation.
Which brings us yet again to our absolute dependancy on the grace of God.
How do we overcome this and walk into the fullness of our inheritance in Christ, to live in the fullness of the glory, that is our destiny and portion in Christ?
Out of His fullness we have received, grace upon grace, spiritual blessing upon spiritual blessing, favor upon favor and gift heaped upon gift. But what does all that help us if we do not know how to access it?
What does the entire sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the richness of what He as Redeemer purchased for us, the lost glroy He resotred back to us, if we fail to access it?
Most people have no clue what is available. So it doesn't even bother them.
Others have started seeing, but yet haven't accessed it yet, and experience such frustration.
Yet there are those who have started, barely started accessing these things.
It isn't a formula however.
And until we the Redeemed have access it, the world will continue arguing and debating and we will have nothing but a bunch of theories and concepts to answer them unless we start radiating that glory for ourselves.
A light should not be put under a bucket that dims it. Jesus commanded us to shine.
