6000 year old (or so) universe

[McCulloch]

The bible never claims that the universe is 6000 years old.

How old is the universe according to the writers of the Bible? Do they provide any information? How much of the data reported as fact does one have to ignore to believe that the Biblical writers would allow for a billions of years old universe?

[McCulloch]

I suggest that we break this topic down into four parts

1. The creation week
2. Adam to the Flood
3. The Flood to Abraham
4. Abraham to the present

My contention is that the writers of the Bible intended that

1. the creation week was a literal seven days
2. Adam to the flood was between 1307 and 2262 years
3. the Flood to Abraham was between 292 and 1172 years and that
4. Abraham lived in the earlier part of the second millennium BCE.

The variations are due to manuscript differences, Masoretic, Alexandrinus, Vaticanus and Samaritan manuscript traditions do not entirely match.

Clearly, unless I am mistaken on any particular section, the writers of the Bible intended us to believe that the creation took place less than 10,000 years ago.

[myth-one.com]

I suggest that we break this topic down into four parts

1. The creation week
2. Adam to the Flood
3. The Flood to Abraham
4. Abraham to the present

My contention is that the writers of the Bible intended that

1. the creation week was a literal seven days
2. Adam to the flood was between 1307 and 2262 years
3. the Flood to Abraham was between 292 and 1172 years and that
4. Abraham lived in the earlier part of the second millennium BCE.

The variations are due to manuscript differences, Masoretic, Alexandrinus, Vaticanus and Samaritan manuscript traditions do not entirely match.

Using the Bible as a reference, the creation described in detail beginning in Genesis 1:3 can be traced back approximately 6000 years. My calculations indicate this creation occurred 5968 years from the year 2010.

But this was a recreation of a world originally created in verse one, which had reached the point of formless, void, and dark:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Genesis 1:1-2)

Nothing is said about the age of the heaven and earth created in verse one.

Clearly, unless I am mistaken on any particular section, the writers of the Bible intended us to believe that the creation took place less than 10,000 years ago.

The "readers" are the problem, not the writers. To believe that the earth is not more than 10,000 years old, one must believe that God intentionally created the earth without form, void, and dark in verse one, then proceeded immediately to correct His "poor work" in verse three. To do so denies an all-powerful, omniscient God.

One cannot have it both ways. Either verse three describes a separate recreation, or God created the earth poorly in verse one. Most theologians call it the gap theory. That is, a gap of time occurred between verses one and two. I call it reading.

[McCulloch]

My calculations indicate this creation occurred 5968 years from the year 2010.

I do not know how you can provide such precision in your calculations. Two things you must take into account: the manuscript differences; rounding errors. According to the Masoretic Text, the period from Adam to the Flood period consists of 1656 years. However, according to the Samaritan texts the period is 1307 years, and according to the Septuagint it is 2242 years. For example when it says that "Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. ", it could mean that Methuselah was born on Enoch's sixty-fifth birthday or that Methuselah was born the day prior to Enoch's sixty-sixth birthday. Accumulate those small unknowns over all of the generations and the best you can come up with is 5968 plus or minus x years.

But this was a recreation of a world originally created in verse one, which had reached the point of formless, void, and dark:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Genesis 1:1-2)

Nothing is said about the age of the heaven and earth created in verse one.

True, nothing is said about the age of the waters, the heaven and earth in Genesis 1:1 but it was before there was light, sun, moon, stars, life, separation of the waters above from the waters below and dry land. So while the universe may be older than Genesis 1:1, prior to the time of that verse, the writers believed that the universe was dark, formless and void.

The "readers" are the problem, not the writers. To believe that the earth is not more than 10,000 years old, one must believe that God intentionally created the earth without form, void, and dark in verse one, then proceeded immediately to correct His "poor work" in verse three. To do so denies an all-powerful, omniscient God.

If that is what it says, then that is what it says. I call it reading.

How much can be made of the so called gap theory? The Genesis myth claims that the god created a heaven and earth with water but no light and no form.

[Goat]

My calculations indicate this creation occurred 5968 years from the year 2010.

I do not know how you can provide such precision in your calculations. Two things you must take into account: the manuscript differences; rounding errors. According to the Masoretic Text, the period from Adam to the Flood period consists of 1656 years. However, according to the Samaritan texts the period is 1307 years, and according to the Septuagint it is 2242 years. For example when it says that "Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. ", it could mean that Methuselah was born on Enoch's sixty-fifth birthday or that Methuselah was born the day prior to Enoch's sixty-sixth birthday. Accumulate those small unknowns over all of the generations and the best you can come up with is 5968 plus or minus x years.

He is actually 200 years off, according to Jewish tradition. The Jewish year is 5770, and tradition has it that is was dating from Adam.

[ChaosBorders]

My contention is that the writers of the Bible intended that

1. the creation week was a literal seven days
2. Adam to the flood was between 1307 and 2262 years
3. the Flood to Abraham was between 292 and 1172 years and that
4. Abraham lived in the earlier part of the second millennium BCE.

Is there a reason you've decided it must be a literal seven days they intended?

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 119#127119

I have no problem using the word day to mean something other than a literal day. Back in my day, we did it all the time.

Has your stance regarding the use of the word 'day' changed since that time?

[McCulloch]

Has your stance regarding the use of the word 'day' changed since that time?

No, but my ability to remember things has.

[myth-one.com]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Genesis 1:1-2) KJV

Nothing is said about the age of the heaven and earth created in verse one.

True, nothing is said about the age of the waters, the heaven and earth in Genesis 1:1 but it was before there was light, sun, moon, stars, life, separation of the waters above from the waters below and dry land.

Where is any description given of the original universe created in Genesis 1:1?

But everything God created beginning in Genesis 1:3 was seen to be "good" by God:

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. (Genesis 1:31)

There is no reason to believe that the original "heaven & earth" was not created as "good." Good would include form, light, land, water, etc. Why would God create something originally as without form, void, and dark? The New International Version of the Bible puts it as follows:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

That is, it was created as good, but now it was formless, dark, and void. It became that way.

So while the universe may be older than Genesis 1:1, prior to the time of that verse, the writers believed that the universe was dark, formless and void.

No sir. The writers knew that at some time after the original creation of the "heaven and the earth," the earth had reached the state of being formless, void, and dark! (as described in verse two)

The Genesis myth claims that the god created a heaven and earth with water but no light and no form.

Where is that so stated?

No, but my ability to remember things has.

You youngsters have only begun. Wait till you get old -- it really gets frustrating! What did I come in this room for?

The bible never claims that the universe is 6000 years old

Winepusher was correct!

[WinePusher]

I suggest that we break this topic down into four parts

1. The creation week
2. Adam to the Flood
3. The Flood to Abraham
4. Abraham to the present

My contention is that the writers of the Bible intended that

1. the creation week was a literal seven days
2. Adam to the flood was between 1307 and 2262 years
3. the Flood to Abraham was between 292 and 1172 years and that
4. Abraham lived in the earlier part of the second millennium BCE.

The variations are due to manuscript differences, Masoretic, Alexandrinus, Vaticanus and Samaritan manuscript traditions do not entirely match.

Clearly, unless I am mistaken on any particular section, the writers of the Bible intended us to believe that the creation took place less than 10,000 years ago.

well, the hole in your argument is you assume a literal interpretation of the creation account and the flood story. We can't assume that a "day" back then was 24 hours. They may have had a differnet way of measuring time. A simple way of knowing this i the ages mentioned in the bible. I believe Abraham lived till he was about 800 something years old, as well as many other biblical figures. Obviously, a life span as long as this is not possible so the system by which they counted the years, days and hours was obviously different from ours.

[McCulloch]

Why would God create something originally as without form, void, and dark?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. It must have been good with light, form and goodness, because God don't make no junk. But then, inexplicably, the heavens and the earth, though good, became formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

God failed to make a creation that would stay good, so he tried again. And again it failed to stay good, so he destroyed most of it with a flood.

The God of the Bible seems to be a repeat failure.

The Genesis myth claims that the god created a heaven and earth with water but no light and no form.

Where is that so stated?

In verse 2 the spirit moves over the surface of the waters. In verse 3, God creates light. Thus water precedes light. It is called reading.