Why?

[Oneiromancer]

I'm sorry to have to raise this question. I know it's a hard one, a confronting one, one that's hard enough that it can drive one to doubt and even despair, even madness, but — I myself am now a victim of that despair. I'm desperate for an answer: Why? If you haven't gone through this despair at some point, I advise you don't read on. But perhaps, if you've managed to get through that despair yourself, you might help me to do the same, and lead me on.

I've almost fully read the Bible recently, and, strange as it sounds, I couldn't help feeling sorry for all those sinners in hell — and I can't help but raise the question, why? Why can't God somehow help them see the light? Is it really their fault that they are ignorant? I mean, can we blame them?

I read the Bible online, so that I could copy any passages that I did not understand. Eventually, however, the only thing I could not understand was this one thing: is suffering really the best way to teach people? I know that suffering can be enlightening. I know it from experience. Yet is suffering really the best way? Is punishment the best way? There is so much suffering. I guess God has a use for it, that we have our use for it, that he is trying to help us through it.

There were many passages that raised that question, maybe citing them would make it clearer just what I meant. Because it's a question that runs very deep. It's easy to think you know the answer when you're well-off, but there's so much more suffering in the Bible than we'll ever have in our own lives.

http://cloudscape.blogspirit.com/media/ ... 146654.pdf

[myth-one.com]

I've almost fully read the Bible recently, and, strange as it sounds, I couldn't help feeling sorry for all those sinners in hell — and I can't help but raise the question, why? Why can't God somehow help them see the light? Is it really their fault that they are ignorant? I mean, can we blame them?

The only current inhabitants of hell are the angels who rebelled:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

Jesus even visited and preached to them in their prison:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (1 Peter 3:19)

Humans who have died are said to be resting in their graves awaiting their resurrection. Sinners are not cast into hell until after the judgment in the Book of Revelation:

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

Question: Who are "all those sinners in hell" that you are worried about?

Thanks, and welcome to the forum, Oneiromancer!

[sleepyhead]

Hello Oneiromancer,


>>>I'm sorry to have to raise this question. I know it's a hard one, a confronting one, one that's hard enough that it can drive one to doubt and even despair, even madness, but — I myself am now a victim of that despair. I'm desperate for an answer: Why? If you haven't gone through this despair at some point, I advise you don't read on. But perhaps, if you've managed to get through that despair yourself, you might help me to do the same, and lead me on.<<<

When i read the bible from the perspective of a belief in reincarnation I don't have the problems of despair that you have. Anyway I'll respond to yoru questions from the vantage point of a belief in reincarnation as defined within the Edgar Cayce readings.

>>>I've almost fully read the Bible recently, and, strange as it sounds, I couldn't help feeling sorry for all those sinners in hell — and I can't help but raise the question, why? Why can't God somehow help them see the light? Is it really their fault that they are ignorant? I mean, can we blame them?<<<

Instead of the personal God as taught by Christianity we define God as the "creative force". As such he is bound by certain laws and is therefore unchangeable. He's the same God now as he was in the old testament times. So one of these laws which God doesn't change is that because we have free will we also receive what we work for. That can be good or bad and God doesn't become involved in sorting out whats good or bad. This natural law of giving us whatever we work for is helping us see the light.

If in the above paragraph you are defining light as a belief in ya de ya de ya, the reincarnation belief system doesn't claim that belief in any particular set of doctrines will guarantee an edge over anyone else.

>>>I read the Bible online, so that I could copy any passages that I did not understand. Eventually, however, the only thing I could not understand was this one thing: is suffering really the best way to teach people? I know that suffering can be enlightening. I know it from experience. Yet is suffering really the best way? Is punishment the best way? There is so much suffering. I guess God has a use for it, that we have our use for it, that he is trying to help us through it.<<<

Ensuring that we receive what we work for is the best way to ensure we eventually come to understand what is good and what is bad.

>>>There were many passages that raised that question, maybe citing them would make it clearer just what I meant. Because it's a question that runs very deep. It's easy to think you know the answer when you're well-off, but there's so much more suffering in the Bible than we'll ever have in our own lives.<<<

The pdf was afairly large file. Was there a particular passages which I can respond to which best represents why you are in despair.

[ChaosBorders]

I'm sorry to have to raise this question. I know it's a hard one, a confronting one, one that's hard enough that it can drive one to doubt and even despair, even madness, but — I myself am now a victim of that despair. I'm desperate for an answer: Why? If you haven't gone through this despair at some point, I advise you don't read on. But perhaps, if you've managed to get through that despair yourself, you might help me to do the same, and lead me on.

I've almost fully read the Bible recently, and, strange as it sounds, I couldn't help feeling sorry for all those sinners in hell — and I can't help but raise the question, why? Why can't God somehow help them see the light? Is it really their fault that they are ignorant? I mean, can we blame them?

I read the Bible online, so that I could copy any passages that I did not understand. Eventually, however, the only thing I could not understand was this one thing: is suffering really the best way to teach people? I know that suffering can be enlightening. I know it from experience. Yet is suffering really the best way? Is punishment the best way? There is so much suffering. I guess God has a use for it, that we have our use for it, that he is trying to help us through it.

There were many passages that raised that question, maybe citing them would make it clearer just what I meant. Because it's a question that runs very deep. It's easy to think you know the answer when you're well-off, but there's so much more suffering in the Bible than we'll ever have in our own lives.

http://cloudscape.blogspirit.com/media/ ... 146654.pdf

I can understand your despair, having gone through a similar state when contemplating the implications of such a place. It even reached a point where I was fine with the idea of going to Hell myself just to show any one there a little love.

But eventually I came to several realizations.

A) If there is a Hell, the only reason God would send anyone there is if it was absolutely necessary as part of God's perfect plan for existence. (PM if you want further explanation as to why it might be necessary).

B) There may not even be a Hell the way most Christians think of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

Matthew 10:28 "Both body and soul are destroyed in hell. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

In this case Hell can be thought of as a place the body and soul is terminated. If you're being eternally tortured the question is, how has your soul been killed?

C) Even if there is a Hell, it doesn't necessarily mean anyone ends up there (at least not indefinitely).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism

John 12:32 "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself."

[Volbrigade]

I'm sorry to have to raise this question. I know it's a hard one, a confronting one, one that's hard enough that it can drive one to doubt and even despair, even madness, but — I myself am now a victim of that despair. I'm desperate for an answer: Why? If you haven't gone through this despair at some point, I advise you don't read on. But perhaps, if you've managed to get through that despair yourself, you might help me to do the same, and lead me on.

I've almost fully read the Bible recently, and, strange as it sounds, I couldn't help feeling sorry for all those sinners in hell — and I can't help but raise the question, why? Why can't God somehow help them see the light? Is it really their fault that they are ignorant? I mean, can we blame them?

I read the Bible online, so that I could copy any passages that I did not understand. Eventually, however, the only thing I could not understand was this one thing: is suffering really the best way to teach people? I know that suffering can be enlightening. I know it from experience. Yet is suffering really the best way? Is punishment the best way? There is so much suffering. I guess God has a use for it, that we have our use for it, that he is trying to help us through it.

There were many passages that raised that question, maybe citing them would make it clearer just what I meant. Because it's a question that runs very deep. It's easy to think you know the answer when you're well-off, but there's so much more suffering in the Bible than we'll ever have in our own lives.

http://cloudscape.blogspirit.com/media/ ... 146654.pdf

Regarding the topics of suffering and Hell, and the reasons for their existence, you're entering into areas where "angels fear to tread."

I am no angel.



I am therefore willing to offer my $.02, in response to your heartfelt and moving expression of anguish on the topic.

First: have you ever read "The Problem of Pain", C. S. Lewis' examination of the age-old question (implied, if not overtly expressed, in your post) "If God is all-Good and all-Powerful, then why does He allow suffering?"

If you are unused to the precise use of language (most modernists are) to express clarity of reasoning (nearly all post-modernist are), then you may be put off by Prof. Lewis' style at first. I've known people, for instance, who after a chapter or two of his "Mere Christianity" pronounced it "boring" and promptly dropped it.

But if you've made it through the entire Bible, then that won't be a consideration, I'm sure.

One thing of particular value in Lewis' work -- all of it -- is that he's not just an ivory tower intellectual. With regard to "pain" -- even though he takes care to disclaim that there are few who are greater cowards with regard to its prospects than he (I offer a similar disclaimer) -- his credentials are solid. He lost his beloved mother at an early age; and he served on the front lines in WWI, certainly some of the most brutal combat conditions imaginable.

Now, having done the work of pointing you in the direction of an extensively and powerfully reasoned treatment of the topic (Lewis addresses the mind, but in such a way that it resonates in the heart), I offer you my thoughts on the topic, based on what I have learned.

Your compassion toward the damned is, in my mind, commendable. It might be expressed as the compassion of a sinner for his/her fellow sinners. We who once were sinners (i.e., Christians; someone who is reborn into "the new creation" is no longer a sinner -- though they are still quite capable of sinful behavior) should always have compassion on those who are still lost in their sins.

It is important to understand that Hell is not a place made for men. It is reserved for the rebellious angels, those that existed in the direct presence of God, and who despite that, in their pride elected to attempt to exist apart from Him.

This bears some reflection on.

Now we know that the more gifted and talented a human being is, if those gifts and talents (e.g., intelligence, charm, good looks, strong will) are corrupted toward a bad -- dare we say evil? -- end, then that person can be truly bad indeed. Put another way, a talented and capable bad man is worse than a mediocre and ineffectual one.

Or, to borrow from CSL -- a cow can be neither very bad or very good; a dog both better and worse; an ordinary man better and worse still; and a man of genius better and worst of all.

Imagine, then how truly bad (evil) a supernatural being, bestowed by its creator with enormous capabilities, can be if those capabilities are perverted toward evil ends. Bad enough, once corrupted, to renounce their allegiance to and worship of Holy God, and choose their own will instead.

The profundity of this error is difficult to express. What is intimated in the creeds is that God's plan with regard to the creation, specifically man (who is to have "dominion over the angels") was the cause for the rebellion. And what we know is that the actions by these fallen angels, now demons, with regard to man have produced inexpressible suffering and pain.

God's plan for allowing these events to unfold in the manner he has is incomprehensible to us. We can only have faith, and trust in Him, that it is to a better purpose than we can imagine; and that as Paul wrote, the sufferings that we endure are not worth comparing to the "weight of glory" that awaits us.

And remember, God is not indifferent to our suffering. Indeed, He partook it upon Himself at Calvary. And He answers every prayer in regard to ours, in accordance with His will and what works to the best of the believer.

Still, it's hard. This world, and this life, while it can contain such staggering beauty and wonder, can also be crushing and heartbreaking.

One wonders, as your title suggests, "why?" Why didn't God create a world devoid of suffering? Perhaps the possibility of suffering is the necessary counterpart to the possibility of good. Perhaps it is impossible for matter to exist without immutable laws, the coming up against results in harm and pain; and when man joined in the rebellion against God, he fell not only out of communion with Him, but out of harmony with those laws. Perhaps a material universe in which a wooden beam becomes soft as foam when my head comes into contact with it, but remains hard and rigid for every other purpose, is an absurdity.

And perhaps the reason that God created matter is in order to spiritualize it -- us -- because there is no other way to create "many Sons" and "otherness."

I don't know if any of this will be helpful to you at all. I'll leave you with this: with regard to the souls in Hell; no one will be in Hell unless they choose to be. We are faced in this life with a deadly serious choice: choose God, or choose ourselves. There is no third alternative. Of course, this opens the question in regard to the fate of the "virtuous pagans", and whether they will have the opportunity to choose Christ. I believe they will -- but that is another topic; and in any case, is God's business.

But as for those who resolutely choose themselves over God, in the ultimate act of Pride: I've always thought that their choice was a major reason why God will need to "wipe away our tears" in Heaven.

[JoeyKnothead]

I'm sure there are plenty of those sinners, like me, who simply will not cotton to such a capricious, egotistical, spiteful and murderous god.

We will be partying in Hell as we condemn the tyrant god of the Christians.

[Volbrigade]

I'm sure there are plenty of those sinners, like me, who simply will not cotton to such a capricious, egotistical, spiteful and murderous god.

We will be partying in Hell as we condemn the tyrant god of the Christians.

Of course you will.

It may not be much of a party, though. Since every good thing comes from God -- and since a working definition of Hell is a place absent of God -- you'll have to make do without fun, joy, fellowship, laughter, music, companionship, and every other good thing.

Sounds like pretty flat champagne to me.

Oh well. Enjoy!

[ChaosBorders]

I'm sure there are plenty of those sinners, like me, who simply will not cotton to such a capricious, egotistical, spiteful and murderous god.

We will be partying in Hell as we condemn the tyrant god of the Christians.

Of course you will.

It may not be much of a party, though. Since every good thing comes from God -- and since a working definition of Hell is a place absent of God -- you'll have to make do without fun, joy, fellowship, laughter, music, companionship, and every other good thing.

Sounds like pretty flat champagne to me.

Oh well. Enjoy!

Absent you say? Is your view of God not omnipresent?

[Volbrigade]

Absent you say? Is your view of God not omnipresent?

God has prepared a place for Lucifer and his minions. It stands to reason that if He inhabits it, then it will contain goodness. But that doesn't seem to be the plan. Perhaps it's in some sense a "no-place" that contains nothing good; only the enraged, chaotic remnants of what were once spirits; and what were once the souls of those foolish enough to be deceived by them.

Maybe that's what the "Lake of Fire" is: the eternal burning hatred of the damned. We can't imagine the experience of immortal creatures eternally divorced from the source of all goodness and all good things, which is undoubtedly a good thing in itself.

[ChaosBorders]

Absent you say? Is your view of God not omnipresent?

God has prepared a place for Lucifer and his minions. It stands to reason that if He inhabits it, then it will contain goodness. But that doesn't seem to be the plan. Perhaps it's in some sense a "no-place" that contains nothing good; only the enraged, chaotic remnants of what were once spirits; and what were once the souls of those foolish enough to be deceived by them.

Maybe that's what the "Lake of Fire" is: the eternal burning hatred of the damned. We can't imagine the experience of immortal creatures eternally divorced from the source of all goodness and all good things, which is undoubtedly a good thing in itself.

I counter you with this. If God is omnipresent, and there is no God in Hell, then there is nothing there, and nothing doesn't exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism