Hell

[Compassionist]

According to http://myth-one.com the mainstream Christianity is wrong about Hell. What do those who accept mainstream Christianity think?

[Compassionist]

According to http://myth-one.com the mainstream Christianity is wrong about Hell. What do those who accept mainstream Christianity think?

Here are some verses which may help with the discussion:

Firstly, some quotes about Hell from this website:

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:11-12).

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42).

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:49-50).

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 22:12-13).

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 24:50-51).

For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:29-30).

But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out (Luke 13:27-28).

As you can see, these verses differ greatly from the Hell portrayed by C.S.Lewis and quoted by Timothy Keller on page 79 of The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism:

Their delusion is that, if they glorified God, they would somehow lose power and freedom, but in a supreme and tragic irony, their choice has ruined their own potential for greatness. Hell is, as Lewis says, "the greatest monument to human freedom." As Romans 1:24 says, God "gave them up to ... their desires." All God does in the end with people is give them what they most want, including freedom from himself. What could be more fair than that? Lewis writes:
There are only two kinds of people - those who say "Thy will be done" to God or those to whom God in the end says, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell choose it. Without that self-choice it wouldn't be Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it.

Also, some verses about predestination (like the quoted verses above, these also contradict the views of C.S.Lewis and Timothy Keller):

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestined us to the adoption of children to himself by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Isaiah 41:9 "I have chosen you, and not cast you away."

John 6:37 "All who the Father gives me, shall come to me. And him who comes to me, I will in no way reject."

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, unless the Father who has sent me draws him…"

John 6:65 "…no man can come to me, unless it were given to him by my Father."

John 15:16 "You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain…"

Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

So, the views of C.S.Lewis and Timothy Keller are not supported by the Bible and are in fact contradicted by the Bible.

As you can see from the above verses, the interpretation offered in http://myth-one.com is not supported by the Bible. Any comments? Does anyone care about the topic of Hell in the Bible and its implications?

[ConiectoErgoSum]

even within Matthew there are multiple definitions. sometimes he says 'outer darkness' and sometimes it's 'furnace of fire'.

i doubt that one author would have used two incompatible descriptions unless they were symbolic. there are so many different descriptions of hell that i really don't know what hell is, other than 'not part of the kingdom of heaven'.

[Compassionist]

even within Matthew there are multiple definitions. sometimes he says 'outer darkness' and sometimes it's 'furnace of fire'.

i doubt that one author would have used two incompatible descriptions unless they were symbolic. there are so many different descriptions of hell that i really don't know what hell is, other than 'not part of the kingdom of heaven'.

I don't know. I find the Bible confusing, confounding and self-contradictory.

[myth-one.com]

According to http://myth-one.com the mainstream Christianity is wrong about Hell. What do those who accept mainstream Christianity think?

What Myth-one says is unimportant. What is important is what he can verify that the scriptures state.

That said, your opening sentence above is not totally correct! Myth-One.com and mainstream Christianity probably agree as to what hell is and who goes there. But mainstream Christianity does not agree with the scriptures as to the fate of nonbelievers cast into hell. More specifically, the following would be a 100% true statement regarding the beliefs of Myth-One.com:

According to http://myth-one.com the mainstream Christianity is wrong about the fate of nonbelievers cast into Hell.

Most mainstream Christianity of which I am aware, Catholics and Protestants, believe nonbelievers suffer eternal torture in hellfire -- as opposed to quickly dying as stated in the scriptures.

They are trapped into this false belief once they accepted the lie that all mankind is born as an immortal soul living within a physical body. If mankind is immortal by birthright and cannot die, the wages of sin cannot be death as stated in the scriptures:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Yes, nonbelievers are cast into hell. But the Bible states that they perish there:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Those believing that mankind is immortal from birth, cannot believe that nonbelievers die in hell because mankind's "soul" lives forever!

And since the sinner is eternal, his punishment must also be eternal -- thus eternity in hellfire.

Thus a religion based on love and forgiveness is transformed into one of fear, worry, and filicide. The Bible prophesies specifically that the church will fail in its mission, thus lending credence that the scriptures were inspired by God. Pretty incredible!

[myth-one.com]

even within Matthew there are multiple definitions. sometimes he says 'outer darkness' and sometimes it's 'furnace of fire'. i doubt that one author would have used two incompatible descriptions unless they were symbolic.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 22:13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:30)

Those entering hell go into outer darkness. Where is outer darkness? If the universe is indeed infinite, then from any point one can travel infinitely in all directions but never reach the end of the universe. Consequently, outer and inner have no meaning as locations within our universe.

Outer darkness as used by Matthew indicates the state of death -- which reflects the fate of nonbelievers. That is, the darkest of dark, without any light or cognizance. After all, the dead know not anything:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Humans cast into hell quickly suffer the "second death" described in Revelation, never to be cognizant of anything ever again -- thus outer darkness.

I don't know. I find the Bible confusing, confounding and self-contradictory.

The word you are searching for is probably "sealed":

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot for it is sealed: (Isaiah 29:11)

[Compassionist]

I see your logic and the Biblical justification, myth-one.com - however, the Bible is unreliable given its self-contradictions, ambiguity and inaccuracies. Thank you.

[myth-one.com]

I see your logic and the Biblical justification, myth-one.com - however, the Bible is unreliable given its self-contradictions, ambiguity and inaccuracies. Thank you.

If you see my logic and the Biblical justification, then you understand how hell could be referred to as both "outer darkness" and a "furnace of fire" without contradiction. So that one is no longer a contradiction, ambiguity, or inacuracy -- at least to you. You're welcome!

Can you have that "contradiction" deleted from "skepticsannotatedbible.com" ?

[Compassionist]

I see your logic and the Biblical justification, myth-one.com - however, the Bible is unreliable given its self-contradictions, ambiguity and inaccuracies. Thank you.

If you see my logic and the Biblical justification, then you understand how hell could be referred to as both "outer darkness" and a "furnace of fire" without contradiction. So that one is no longer a contradiction, ambiguity, or inacuracy -- at least to you. You're welcome!

Can you have that "contradiction" deleted from "skepticsannotatedbible.com" ?

The trouble is it's all about how the Bible is interpreted. Given enough cognitive gymnastics it is certainly possible to reconcile anything with anything. In a sense, "outer darkness" and "furnace of fire" are still contradictory. After all, fire generates light and a furnace of fire cannot be dark. I recommend that you trawl through the entire http://skepticsannotatedbible.com Thank you.

[ConiectoErgoSum]

I find the Bible confusing, confounding and self-contradictory.

what do you mean self? you think it's all one book? sure God inspired many people, but that doesn't mean they were perfect at getting their point across.

example: the faith vs. works contradiction.

possible contradiction: John and Paul tell us faith or bust. James tells us faith is nothing without works. Jesus himself often says sinners will be punished.

possible resolution: faith implies works, or works imply faith - they go hand in hand. some bible-writers stress one side of the equation (maybe Church A was struggling in faith) while other bible-writers stress the other side (Church B is hyper-evangelical but they don't help the poor). they exaggerate to get their point across more strongly.

whatever the case, don't look at the entire bible as either true or false.