A Biblical Affirmation of Homosexuality

[cnorman18]

Bruce W. Lowe wrote “A Letter to Louise� in 2002, at the age of 94. I heard about this, and when I looked at it, I thought it the most remarkable document I have read on the subject of Christianity vis-à-vis homosexuality. It’s an eloquent and scholarly treatise, from a conservative Baptist minister, and is widely circulated on the Internet among gay and lesbian Christians and their supporters.

A Letter to Louise; A Biblical Affirmation of Homosexuality

From my own perspective as a former Methodist minister, I think that this is an important document that ought to be required reading for Christians who are concerned with homosexual issues. I think that one day, it will be regarded as a foundational document, the beginning of a sea change in the Christian faith analogous to eventual Christian opposition to slavery and segregation.

Let's all hope so.

[rsvp]

There are people who say that alcoholism is inherited. Does that make it any less of a sin?

[cnorman18]

There are people who say that alcoholism is inherited. Does that make it any less of a sin?

Alcoholism is a disease, not a sin. Drunkenness is a sin, if you like. There is, of course, a difference.

Were you going to respond to any of the rest of this essay, or just dismiss it with that simplistic off-the-cuff remark?

Further; What other sins do you think make one unacceptable to the Church or to Christ, making them fair game for the kind of harassment and hatred outlined there? Is that hatred and harassment justified by your faith? Do you think that "God hates fags" too?

Are you one who is entitled to "cast the first stone"?

[cnorman18]

For the record, here are the numbered arguments in the article at the link:

One. Homosexuality is an unchangeable nature; it is not a lifestyle choice.

(Our friend RSVP seems to have read no farther than this.)

Two. All people are created in the image of God. The homosexuality of gays and lesbians, created by God, is good and not evil.

Three. The homosexual is just as normal a person as a heterosexual and should not be thought of in sexual terms.

Four. Several passages in the Bible speak of same-gender sex. In every instance, the Bible is talking about heterosexuals who, filled with lust, have become sex perverts. The Bible says nothing about innate homosexuality as we know it today or about people who are homosexuals.

Five. The burden imposed on homosexuals by society is a great evil. We should stand in revulsion against, and do all we can to oppose, the prejudice, the hatreds, and the condemnation of a society that make the homosexual's life so difficult.

Six. Homosexuals are being sinned against by our churches. Like our society, our churches need to change.

Seven. Gays and lesbians in general have the potential for outstanding character and accomplishment; some may have greater potential than most heterosexuals to be exceptional persons.

Eight. It is not only unrealistic to expect homosexuals to live without sex, but also it is psychologically harmful to them for them to do so.

Nine. Full acceptance by society, including the blessings and legality of marriage should be extended to gays and lesbians in the same way it is extended to others.

Ten. As in society, gays and lesbians should be accepted and affirmed in our churches and given any opportunity for service, including ordination, that others have.

After these ten points are argued and supported with rational arguments and clear evidence, two appendices follow; the first on principles of Biblical interpretation, and the second on the specific passages in the Bible that concern, or seem to concern, homosexuality.

Please do not post arguments against any of these points if you haven’t read the essay itself. If your arguments are answered by the essay, I will note that without further comment.

[Jrosemary]

Two. All people are created in the image of God. The homosexuality of gays and lesbians, created by God, is good and not evil.

This is one of the major arguments in Judaism for gay marriage in synagogues--and probably one of the reasons that three out of the four major branches of Judaism (Reconstructionist, Reform and Conservative) all for gay marriage. But Judaism has looked at most of the arguments this minister puts forth.

One. Homosexuality is an unchangeable nature; it is not a lifestyle choice.

I'm pro gay-marriage and I identify as a lesbian--but here's my only issue. I only sort of agree with the first point. I mean, I do--but with a caveat. If Kinsey was right, most people are not strictly homosexual or strictly heterosexual. Most of us fall somewhere along a scale, leaning toward either a homosexual or a heterosexual orientation.

I bring this up because bisexuals always seem to get a raw deal! Which is ridiculous, when many--possibly most--people may have some capacity (greater or lesser, depending on the person) for falling for either sex. I know the official stance in Conservative Judaism is that bis should settle in the straight world. What, regardless of who they fall in love with? Oy!

Ok, that was probably off-topic, but I had to get it off my chest . . .

[rsvp]

[[strike]quote="cnorman18"]

There are people who say that alcoholism is inherited. Does that make it any less of a sin?

[strike]Alcoholism is a disease, not a sin. Drunkenness is a sin, if you like. There is, of course, a difference[/strike].What is the difference. If alcoholism is a disease, then by your standards getting drunk is not a sin? When homosexuals "make love' do they not burn with lust and desire for each other? This letter is just a lame attempt to rationalize sin. The same with any other person who wants to justify their behavior. Man is made in God's image by the fact that we have an immortal soul and not that we are made good.

[strike]Were you going to respond to any of the rest of this essay, or just dismiss it with that simplistic off-the-cuff remark?[/strike] No I'm not going to respond to the rest of the argument because it holds no water.

Further; What other sins do you think make one unacceptable to the Church or to Christ, making them fair game for the kind of harassment and hatred outlined there? Is that hatred and harassment justified by your faith? Do you think that "God hates fags" too?

[strike]Are you one who is entitled to "cast the first stone"?

[/strike]Yep. It is a christians job to stand up against error. 1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (New King James Version)
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Pretty simple.
[strike][/strike]

[cnorman18]

[[strike]quote="cnorman18"]

There are people who say that alcoholism is inherited. Does that make it any less of a sin?

[strike]Alcoholism is a disease, not a sin. Drunkenness is a sin, if you like. There is, of course, a difference[/strike].What is the difference. If alcoholism is a disease, then by your standards getting drunk is not a sin? When homosexuals "make love' do they not burn with lust and desire for each other? This letter is just a lame attempt to rationalize sin. The same with any other person who wants to justify their behavior. Man is made in God's image by the fact that we have an immortal soul and not that we are made good.

[strike]Were you going to respond to any of the rest of this essay, or just dismiss it with that simplistic off-the-cuff remark?[/strike] No I'm not going to respond to the rest of the argument because it holds no water.

Further; What other sins do you think make one unacceptable to the Church or to Christ, making them fair game for the kind of harassment and hatred outlined there? Is that hatred and harassment justified by your faith? Do you think that "God hates fags" too?

[strike]Are you one who is entitled to "cast the first stone"?

[/strike]Yep. It is a christians job to stand up against error. 1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (New King James Version)
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Pretty simple.
[strike][/strike]

Okay. Let the record show that you either did not or could not respond to the reasoning and the arguments in this article, but only dismiss them; and your only rationale for doing that is fundamentalist dogmatism.

You are basically in the same position as those Christians who once dogmatically insisted that Christianity supports slavery and racial segregation (not to mention antisemitism). The beliefs of those Christians are something that the Church has long since renounced and has grown to be ashamed of. The day will come when Christians like you are thought of in the same way - as participating in totally unChristlike oppression, injustice, and evil, and supporting hatred and violence even if not directly taking part in it.

Thanks for playing.

[Miles]

[[strike]quote="cnorman18"]

There are people who say that alcoholism is inherited. Does that make it any less of a sin?

[strike]Alcoholism is a disease, not a sin. Drunkenness is a sin, if you like. There is, of course, a difference[/strike].What is the difference. If alcoholism is a disease, then by your standards getting drunk is not a sin? When homosexuals "make love' do they not burn with lust and desire for each other? This letter is just a lame attempt to rationalize sin. The same with any other person who wants to justify their behavior. Man is made in God's image by the fact that we have an immortal soul and not that we are made good.

[strike]Were you going to respond to any of the rest of this essay, or just dismiss it with that simplistic off-the-cuff remark?[/strike] No I'm not going to respond to the rest of the argument because it holds no water.

Further; What other sins do you think make one unacceptable to the Church or to Christ, making them fair game for the kind of harassment and hatred outlined there? Is that hatred and harassment justified by your faith? Do you think that "God hates fags" too?

[strike]Are you one who is entitled to "cast the first stone"?

[/strike]Yep. It is a christians job to stand up against error. 1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (New King James Version)
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Pretty simple.
[strike][/strike]

Interesting that you chose to ignore the footnot appended to your scripture.

• "Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, [a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
  
  Footnotes:
  [a].1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites.

And just what is a catamite?

• "A catamite is the younger, passive partner in a pederastic relationship between a man and a boy."
  source

So it isn't talking about consenting adult homosexuals, but a boy who is the passive partner of a pederast.

[rsvp]

Footnotes:
[a].1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites.[/list]

And just what is a catamite?

• "A catamite is the younger, passive partner in a pederastic relationship between a man and a boy."
  source

So it isn't talking about consenting adult homosexuals, but a boy who is the passive partner of a pederast.[/quote]



Romans 1: 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

Key Words:
Committing what is shameful
Error

Cut and dry? We are to worship in truth and spirit. John 17:17 God's word is truth. Romans 1:27 is God's truth.

If you refuse to accept the Bible as God's word, then there can be no debate!


In this subforum, the Bible is considered an authoritative source. Challenges to the authority of the Bible are not allowed here.
Any questions?

[Abraxas]

Footnotes:
[a].1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites.[/list]

And just what is a catamite?

• "A catamite is the younger, passive partner in a pederastic relationship between a man and a boy."
  source

So it isn't talking about consenting adult homosexuals, but a boy who is the passive partner of a pederast.

Romans 1: 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

Key Words:
Committing what is shameful
Error

Cut and dry? We are to worship in truth and spirit. John 17:17 God's word is truth. Romans 1:27 is God's truth.

If you refuse to accept the Bible as God's word, then there can be no debate!


In this subforum, the Bible is considered an authoritative source. Challenges to the authority of the Bible are not allowed here.
Any questions?

This new passage talks about abandoning one's self to lust and doing something "shameful" that remains unspecified. That passage could just as easily apply to giving into lust as it could sex in general, though you assume the latter.