Is God Punishing Women who Have Abortions?

Two hot topics for the price of one

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micatala
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Is God Punishing Women who Have Abortions?

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Post by micatala »

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/22/disabled-abortion/


VA Rep Bob Marshall claims "that God punishes women who have had abortions by giving them disabled children"


“The number of children who are born subsequent to a first abortion with handicaps has increased dramatically. Why? Because when you abort the first born of any, nature takes its vengeance on the subsequent children,� said Marshall, a Republican.

“In the Old Testament, the first born of every being, animal and man, was dedicated to the Lord. There’s a special punishment Christians would suggest.�
Questions for debate.

Is it really true that the number of handicapped children born to women after they have their first abortion is increasing dramatically?

Is it true that having an abortion increases the likelihood of subsequent children being handicapped?

Note this second question is slightly different than the first.

Finally, if correct answer to either of the first two questions is "yes," does this situation repreesent God's punishment on either the women or the children?
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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bernee51
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Re: Is God Punishing Women who Have Abortions?

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Post by bernee51 »

micatala wrote:http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/22/disabled-abortion/


VA Rep Bob Marshall claims "that God punishes women who have had abortions by giving them disabled children"


“The number of children who are born subsequent to a first abortion with handicaps has increased dramatically. Why? Because when you abort the first born of any, nature takes its vengeance on the subsequent children,� said Marshall, a Republican.

“In the Old Testament, the first born of every being, animal and man, was dedicated to the Lord. There’s a special punishment Christians would suggest.�
Questions for debate.

Is it really true that the number of handicapped children born to women after they have their first abortion is increasing dramatically?

Is it true that having an abortion increases the likelihood of subsequent children being handicapped?

Note this second question is slightly different than the first.

Finally, if correct answer to either of the first two questions is "yes," does this situation repreesent God's punishment on either the women or the children?
I'd be intersted in where he got his info from.

Also, I wonder what Sarah Palin, being the mother of a Down's Syndrome child, thinks of this? Has she secretly had an abortion...or is god punishing her for something else?
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Miles
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Post #3

Post by Miles »

From the Journal of Epidemiology

  • "INDUCED ABORTION AND CONGENITAL MALFORMATIONS IN OFFSPRING OF SUBSEQUENT PREGNANCIES

    MICHAEL B. BRACKEN and THEODORE R. HOLFORD


    A case-control (n = 1427 and 3001, respectively) study In Connecticut found no relationship between delivery of an infant with congenital malformations and overall previous experience of induced abortion (odds ratio (o) = 0.9, 95% CL = 0.7, 1.1). Delivery of a congenitally malformed infant was also unrelated to: 1) abortion of penultimate pregnancy, 2) abortion of first pregnancy when index pregnancy Is second, and 3) multiple previous abortions. Non-white women aged 25–29 who delivered a malformed child were significantly more likely to have aborted (o = 2.6, 95% CL = 1.2, 5.8, p < 0.05). This may be due to more frequent histories of illegal and septic abortion, or to other characteristics of these women. Legal abortion performed under safe clinical conditions appears to Impose no Increased risk for subsequent delivery of a malformed infant."

    source

cnorman18

Is God Punishing Women who have Abortions?

Post #4

Post by cnorman18 »

Good. Now that we've established that the honorable Representative from the great state of Virginia is full of organic fertilizer, I can go into the bathroom and throw up. This is about as contemptible and disgusting as anything I've ever heard of.

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micatala
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Post #5

Post by micatala »

Miles wrote:From the Journal of Epidemiology

  • "INDUCED ABORTION AND CONGENITAL MALFORMATIONS IN OFFSPRING OF SUBSEQUENT PREGNANCIES

    MICHAEL B. BRACKEN and THEODORE R. HOLFORD


    A case-control (n = 1427 and 3001, respectively) study In Connecticut found no relationship between delivery of an infant with congenital malformations and overall previous experience of induced abortion (odds ratio (o) = 0.9, 95% CL = 0.7, 1.1). Delivery of a congenitally malformed infant was also unrelated to: 1) abortion of penultimate pregnancy, 2) abortion of first pregnancy when index pregnancy Is second, and 3) multiple previous abortions. Non-white women aged 25–29 who delivered a malformed child were significantly more likely to have aborted (o = 2.6, 95% CL = 1.2, 5.8, p < 0.05). This may be due to more frequent histories of illegal and septic abortion, or to other characteristics of these women. Legal abortion performed under safe clinical conditions appears to Impose no Increased risk for subsequent delivery of a malformed infant."

    source

Thank you Miles for the leg work.

It would be interesting to know what "studies" (if any) led Marshall to come to his erroneous conclusion.





I'll ask cnorman not to spend too long in the bathroom, as others (like myself) may need to use it soon.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

cnorman18

Is God Punishing Women who Have Abortions?

Post #6

Post by cnorman18 »

I'll ask cnorman not to spend too long in the bathroom, as others (like myself) may need to use it soon.
Hold on, still puking...

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micatala
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Post #7

Post by micatala »

Well, here is the apology I guess we could have expected.

http://www.patriciaebauer.com/category/abortion/
In a statement on his website, Marshall said he regretted his “poorly chosen words.�

He said his broader point was that published medical research suggests abortion raises the risk of miscarriage and birth defects in subsequent pregnancies, and that those findings echo the Bible’s teaching that abortion is wrong.

“I’m saying look at the medical journals,� said Marshall, who produced two studies to buttress his contention. “That’s not saying ‘Bob Marshall thinks a Down syndrome baby is a punishment.’ “
Here is a source supporting in some sense Marshall's claim.

http://www.theunchoice.com/News/pretermbirth.htm

The footnotes refer to an article by Calhoun and Shadigan that I think is the one that appears in the video piece here.

http://delegatebob.com/news/va-del-bob- ... s#more-576



Here is a page from the National Academy of Sciences website that includes a table listing factors associated with pre-term births.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_ ... 9960625001
TABLE B-5 Immutable Medical Risk Factors Associated with Preterm Birth

Previous low birth weight or preterm delivery

Multiple 2nd trimester spontaneous abortion

Prior first trimester induced abortion

Familial and intergenerational factors

History of infertility

Nulliparity

Placental abnormalities

Cervical and uterine anomalies

Gestational bleeding

Intrauterine growth restriction

In utero diethylstilbestrol exposure

Multiple gestations

Infant sex

Short stature

Low prepregnancy weight/low body mass index

Urogenital infections

Preeclampsia
It also lists demographic risk factors.
TABLE B-6 Demographic Risk Factors Associated with Preterm Birth

Race/ethnicity

Single Marital Status

Low Socioeconomic status

Seasonality of pregnancy and birth

Maternal Age

Employment-related physical activity

Occupational exposures

Environment exposures
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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East of Eden
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Post #8

Post by East of Eden »

I don't know about birth defects subsequent to abortions, but there is good evidence abortion increases the risk of breast cancer.

http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/abc.html
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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micatala
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Post #9

Post by micatala »

East of Eden wrote:I don't know about birth defects subsequent to abortions, but there is good evidence abortion increases the risk of breast cancer.

http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/abc.html
Very interesting. Let me bring in a couple of quotes.
TWO WAYS THAT ABORTION RAISES BREAST CANCER RISK

There are two ways that abortion raises a woman’s risk for breast cancer. The first way is not debated. It’s called the "protective effect of childbearing," and scientists have acknowledged this effect for centuries. The second way is debated, and scientists have studied this effect - known as the "independent link" - since 1957. It has to do with this question: Does an abortion leave a woman with more cancer-vulnerable breast tissue than she had before she became pregnant?

First Way - Loss of the Protective Effect of Childbearing: Delayed First Term Pregnancy, Childlessness, Fewer Births, Decreased Breastfeeding

Scientists first observed in the 17th century that women’s reproductive histories impacted their risk for breast cancer when it was noticed that nuns were at high risk for the disease. Scientists surmised that childbearing provides women with increased protection.

Today’s medical experts agree that the best way women can reduce their lifetime risk for breast cancer is by: 1) Having an early first full term pregnancy (FFTP) starting before age 24; 2) Bearing more children; and 3) Breastfeeding for a longer lifetime duration. It’s undeniable that abortion causes women to change their childbearing patterns. It leads them to forego the protective effects of early FFTP, increased childbearing and breastfeeding. Consequently, scientists do not debate that it increases breast cancer risk in this first of two ways.

I recall from La Leche League sources that I became aware of years ago that longer term breast-feeding does reduce the risk of breast cancer. As I recall, women who breast feed even one child for six months or more, especially if it is the sole or primary source of nutrition for the child, have lower cancer rates than women who breast-feed for only a few days or weeks.

The link above later notes:





Scientists have long considered breastfeeding a likely protective factor, but this wasn’t confirmed until recently. In July 2002, a large meta-analysis of 47 epidemiological studies conducted in 30 countries and published in the British medical journal, Lancet, determined that women can reduce their relative risk of the disease by 4.3% for every 12 months of breastfeeding and 7.0% for each birth. It was concluded that skyrocketing breast cancer rates in the developed nations could be reduced by more than one-half if only women would bear more children and breastfeed for longer duration. [Beral, V (July 20, 2002) Lancet 360:187-95]


The second link:
Abortion has been implicated with breast cancer in yet another way, however, and estrogen overexposure is the explanation for it. There is staggering evidence of an independent link between abortion and breast cancer. What this means is that a woman who has an abortion is left with more cancer-vulnerable cells than she had before she ever became pregnant. Biological evidence and more than two dozen studies worldwide support a cause and effect relationship. Fifteen studies were conducted on American women, and 13 of them reported risk elevations. Seven found a more than a twofold elevation in risk. Seventeen are statistically significant, 16 of which demonstrated a positive association. The term “statistical significance� means that scientists are at least 95% certain that their findings are not due to chance or error.

The evidence of a causal relationship between abortion and breast cancer isn’t only based on a statistical relationship either. Scientists also require biological evidence and a reasonable biological explanation before concluding that there’s a causal relationship. These requirements have been met.



Biological Evidence

Researchers were able to demonstrate that 77.7% of a group of rats given abortions could be caused to develop breast cancers with the carcinogen DMBA. On the other hand, 0% of the rats allowed to have a full term pregnancy, but not allowed to nurse their pups, developed tumors when exposed to DMBA. Among a group of 9 rats allowed to have a full term pregnancy and nurse their pups, only one developed a tumor. Among two groups of virgin rats, 66.7% and 71.4% developed tumors after being exposed to the carcinogen. Rats with abortion histories were at the greatest risk of all 5 groups. The experiment demonstrated that an induced abortion resulted in close to a 80% risk elevation among rats. [Russo J, Russo IH (1980) Am J Pathol 100:497-512]

I have to say, except for the breast-feeding, this is all new to me.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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