Is Purgatory really in the Holy Bible?

[Joshua]

This particular writing is about Purgatory, as you know Catholics believe in Purgatory.
Although Protestants do not believe in Purgatory.. but just Heaven for the Perfect and Hell for the Imperfect.
You may also been taught that the Bible does not teach Purgatory, but you may be shocked that it does.


The main body of Christians have always believed in the existence of a place between Heaven and Hell where souls go to be punished for lesser sins and to repay the debt of temporal punishment for sins which have been forgiven. Even after Moses was forgiven by God, he was still punished for his sin. (2 Kg. or 2 Sam. 12:13-14). The primitive Church Fathers regarded the doctrine of Purgatory as one of the basic tenets of the Christian faith. St. Augustine, one of the greatest doctors of the Church, said the doctrine of Purgatory ``has been received from the Fathers and it is observed by the Universal Church.'' True, the word ``Purgatory'' does not appear in the Bible, but a place where lesser sins are purged away and the soul is saved ``yet so as by fire,'' is mentioned. (1 Cor. 3:15). Also, the Bible distinguishes between those who enter Heaven straightaway, calling them ``the church of the firstborn'' (Heb. 12:23), and those who enter after having undergone a purgation, calling them ``the spirits of the just made perfect.'' (Heb. 12:23). Christ Himself stated: ``Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.'' (Matt. 5 :26). And: ``Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.'' (Matt. 12:36). These are obviously references to Purgatory. Further, the Second Book of Machabees (which was dropped from the Scriptures by the Protestant Reformers) says: ``It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.'' (2 Mach. 12:46). Ancient Christian tomb inscriptions from the second and third centuries frequently contain an appeal for prayers for the dead. In fact, the custom of praying for the dead--which is meaningless if there is no Purgatory--was universal among Christians for the fifteen centuries preceding the Protestant Reformation.
Furthermore, ordinary justice calls for a place of purgation between Heaven and Hell. Take our own courts of justice, for example. For major crimes a person is executed or sentenced to life imprisonment (Hell); for minor crimes a person is sentenced to temporary imprisonment for punishment and rehabilitation (Purgatory); for no crime at all a person is rewarded with the blessing of free citizenship (Heaven). If a thief steals some money, then regrets his deed and asks the victim for forgiveness, it is quite just for the victim to forgive him yet still insist on restitution. God, who is infinitely just, insists on holy restitution. This is made either in this life, by doing penance (Matt. 3:2; Luke 3:8, 13:3; Apoc. 3:2-3, 19), or in Purgatory .

Also, what Christian is there who, despite his faith in Christ and his sincere attempts to be Christlike, does not find sin and worldliness still in his heart? ``For in many things we all offend.'' (James 3:2). Yet ``there shall not enter into it [the new Jerusalem, Heaven] anything defiled.'' (Apoc. or Rev. 21:27). In Purgatory the soul is mercifully purified of all stain; there God carries out the work of spiritual purification which most Christians neglected and resisted on earth. It is important to remember that Catholics do not believe that Christ simply covers over their sinful souls, like covering a manure heap with a blanket of snow (Martin Luther's description of God's forgiveness). Rather, Christ insists that we be truly holy and sinless to the core of our souls. ``Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.'' (Matt. 5:48). This growth in sinlessness--in Christian virtue and holiness--is of course the work of an entire lifetime (and is possible only through the grace of God). With many this cleansing is completed only in Purgatory. If there is no Purgatory, but only Heaven for the perfect and Hell for the imperfect, then the vast majority of us are hoping in vain for life eternal in Heaven.

Catholic Apologetics - Joshua

[DeBunkem]

There are some texts that compare death to a sleep, as well as total unconsciousness. But I have cited the account ( which makes no interpretation of itself), of the raising of Samuel by the medium of Endor. This would support those who believe in ghosts. I have also referred to the NT account of spirits in "prison," sometimes referred to by the Greek pagan name Tartarus. Whether or not I discount this as just another fable is irrelevant. I am participating in the debate on my terms...as an unbeliever. This does not negate the Biblical passages I mention (mainly because others have failed to do so). In fact, as a non-theologian, I do not attempt to spin these accounts to fit any preconception..a position that also needs to be heard, IMO.

[Manasseh_]

There are some texts that compare death to a sleep, as well as total unconsciousness. But I have cited the account ( which makes no interpretation of itself), of the raising of Samuel by the medium of Endor. This would support those who believe in ghosts. I have also referred to the NT account of spirits in "prison," sometimes referred to by the Greek pagan name Tartarus. Whether or not I discount this as just another fable is irrelevant. I am participating in the debate on my terms...as an unbeliever. This does not negate the Biblical passages I mention (mainly because others have failed to do so). In fact, as a non-theologian, I do not attempt to spin these accounts to fit any preconception..a position that also needs to be heard, IMO.

Huh? Debunkem if your personal logic weren't so sad it would be quite entertaining and amusing.

First you say the account of Saul going to this woman of Endor "makes no interpretation of itself" then you say you"make no attempt to spin this account to fit any PRECONCEPTIONS"

.....and all this rests on your beginning statement that this account can support the belief in ghosts.

Just how did you come to that conclusion if the event makes no mention of ghosts and you aren't trying to put your own spin on it????????

Saul sought a woman with a FAMILIAR SPIRIT to raise someone from the dead.
If scriptures aren't clear on some things to people reading it, it surely is clear that only God only is the lifegiver and can raise from the dead.

That was Saul's disobedience to God because he full well knew his scripture from the writings of Moses................and he knew it was wrong to do this.

Deut:18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
.............this woman was a consulter of devils and a necromancer.

Scripture is also clear that the dead have conscious being, so the real Samuel would have no knowledge of this woman calling him to rise up.

If you had read the account more closely you would have found that Saul did not see Samuel......he only PERCEIVED it to be Samuel as per this woman's description of what she saw and not what Saul had actually seen.

1Samuel 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

The dummy believed in an unbeliever of God. Saul just listened to this woman's description and falsely came to the conclusion that it was Samuel.

The key word in this account when Saul thought Samuel was speaking is DECEPTION......Saul was deceived by the devil. Deceived to think a consulter of familiar spirits had power to raise up dead people, deceived as the devil spoke thinking it to be Samuel, deceived because he, Saul was superstitious.......just a continuance of his disobedience to God.

His disobedience was only adding to God's reason to take the kingdom from him and give it to David.


So.............you say you make no attempt to put any spin on the stories in God's word, but you have done just the opposite. Your spin tries to say it's only a book of fables, nothing in it really happened. You say it can teach a number of different doctrines, although that would cause scripture to contradict itself, which it does not.

Debunkem, .........this really seems to be a PRECONCEPTION on your part, as I understand the definition of the word.


pre·con·cep·tion n. An opinion or a conception formed in advance of full or adequate knowledge or experience; a prejudice or bias

[Manasseh_]

Well, Joshua, I'm still not shocked.......I haven't found the teaching of Purgatory as of yet in any scripture.

I'm still curious though as to how this teaching was developed by doctrines of men.
Also I'm confused as to why the need for such a doctrine, when scripture has a better promise and hope within its writings.

[lorene]

[quote="
The Apocrypha was in the...'inerrant' word in the beginning...Are you saying it(the bible) was not inerrant before it(The apocrypha) was removed.

Sorry to disappoint you lorene, but the apocrypha was not included in the 'inerrant' word of God in the beginning.

No disappointment here manasseh, but you will have a hard time convincing me the bible was here before 300ad...

The writings first began to appear after the Old Testament was translated to Greek from the Hebrew, around 200-100 BC.

Yes, but this has nothing to do with what you said. Or what was asked of you.

The greek translation is commonly known as the Septuagint. When Jerome began to translate he was struggling to decide whether he should include these writings. Early in his life he believed them to be inspired by God, but later in his life he had a change of heart and concluded they were not inspired by God, most likely because his studies showed him the errors and contradictions contained in the writings.[/quote]

Well, if he found some he is doing better than you in this discussion as you have not given any.

I

f you are a member of the Roman Catholic Church, you might want to ask that organization why they are three books short in their version of the original Apocrypha, since you feel they are inspired writings ?????

I am not yet a catholic...

The Roman Catholic version is missing 1Esdras ,2 Esdras also called 3 and 4 Esdras.......and Prayer of Manasses/Manasseh (also called Book of Odes). Are you going to ask your own church if they feel the bible is not the inerrant word of God because they decided not to include these books???

Beats me those books are in mine...Opps!!!

Today there are basically four different sets of the Apocrypha:
Catholic
Slavonic Orthodox
Greek Orthodox
Historical Coptic

It wasn't until the Council of Carthage AD 397 that the apocrypha was first championed by Augustine after Jerome's death.

This is false...

The apocrypha was even included in the original 1611 KingJamesVersion.....but after heavy protest from puritans it was removed after 1644.

Not really... I have sevral european versions of the kjv with it in there...pretty much modern ones.

So lorene,..............to answer your question directly

So...it is about time now that we waded through all the other rubish sown so far...

, God's word is HOLY and He would have , through his almighty power kept the apocrypha within his word had they been inspired by him.

It still is...many european copies have it...own several myself.

BTW , none of the writers of inspired scripture ever quoted from any of these writings, Christ and his apostles included.

No one ever said so, but there is STRONG evidence they all refered to them. It would take solid denial or strong imagination for a person to compare James, and Paul's writings to Sirach (and several other books)and say they weere not refering to those writings in several places....and some to suggest even Jesus...

So now that i reiterated what was actually said compred to what you have tried and failed to say, pleae tell me,

was the inerrant word inerrant before the apocrypha was removed...

is the verisions with it less inerrant than your verisions without it?..(thanks for the history lesson as it did nothign but show the apocrypha was first in the word like i said...

[lorene]

Saul just listened to this woman's description and falsely came to the conclusion that it was Samuel.

this is completely wrong....it requires one to totally deny the story and the bible to believe what you wrote in that post...

[lorene]

Huh? Debunkem if your personal logic weren't so sad it would be quite entertaining and amusing.

Attacking the poster...classic form from one who sees he is losing a debate.

That was Saul's disobedience to God because he full well knew his scripture from the writings of Moses................and he knew it was wrong to do this.

Deut:18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
.............this woman was a consulter of devils and a necromancer.

Yes yes yes...none of this relates to your point at all...

Scripture is also clear that the dead have conscious being, so the real Samuel would have no knowledge of this woman calling him to rise up.

The 'real' samuel was NOT the one who was dead...

If you had read the account more closely you would have found that Saul did not see Samuel......he only PERCEIVED it to be Samuel as per this woman's description of what she saw and not what Saul had actually seen.

Yeah she only described him to the point saul knew it was him...

1Samuel 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

The dummy believed in an unbeliever of God. Saul just listened to this woman's description and falsely came to the conclusion that it was Samuel.

Yes and wehn the bible says Samuel said, then the big dummies who wrote it did not really know the difference between him and the woman...look...
or that the bible says the woman saw Samuel...it was only guessing there and was duped by the witch...

1 samuel 28:6- something
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine nto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine ene17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

The key word in this account when Saul thought Samuel was speaking is DECEPTION......Saul was deceived by the devil.

Sounds like one could debate just who is deceived by the devil...since the bible clearly disagrees with your assumptions.(see above).

Deceived to think a consulter of familiar spirits had power to raise up dead people, deceived as the devil spoke thinking it to be Samuel, deceived because he, Saul was superstitious.......just a continuance of his disobedience to God.

The writer of 1 sam was also decieved by your own accounting of it's own words...

His disobedience was only adding to God's reason to take the kingdom from him and give it to David.

Not at all, that was already settled and there was nothing he could do to reverse that....it is in the section in question...here it is...

1 sam. 28:16Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

So.............

Soooo....you are wrong according to the bible.

[lorene]

Well, Joshua, I'm still not shocked.......I haven't found the teaching of Purgatory as of yet in any scripture.

I'm still curious though as to how this teaching was developed by doctrines of men.
Also I'm confused as to why the need for such a doctrine, when scripture has a better promise and hope within its writings.

Well Manasseh, you have done nothing to disprove the op or even dent it...

[Manasseh_]

Well, Joshua, I'm still not shocked.......I haven't found the teaching of Purgatory as of yet in any scripture.

I'm still curious though as to how this teaching was developed by doctrines of men.
Also I'm confused as to why the need for such a doctrine, when scripture has a better promise and hope within its writings.

Well Manasseh, you have done nothing to disprove the op or even dent it...

lorene, instead of replying consistently with a basic "you're wrong" why don't you reply to the points I've given, ie, biblical points and historical points?

Reply to this please:

God's word says this about the dead and where they go when dead.

JOB 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

PSALMS 22:29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

PSALMS 89:48 What man [is he that] liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

ECCLESIASTES 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Now .....obviously there are only 4 verses here taken from God's word......but they make 2 important points. Also be aware that these are only 4 of hundreds of scripture that do teach the same truth.

At death the soul goes to the grave, not heaven, not hell, not PURGATORY.
At death there is no longer conscious being, dead people don't have any knowledge.

Simple conclusion, God's word is answering the question of purgatory. Souls do not go to any place as conscious beings, His word says the opposite, they go to the grave.


Now which teaching should we hold as authority?


So far you've replied only with disagreement, but with no reason as to your disagreement.........only to say you disagree and are not convinced.

Let's see if you can do better with these verses and this question.

Oh and by the way , a comment in one of your replies "Attacking the poster...classic form from one who sees he is losing a debate."

Had I ended with my comment and not replied further why I thought Debunkem's logic was flawed, that would have been an ad hominem attack.
But it's obvious that I continued and gave reason as to why I thought the logic was flawed. I'm not debating on personal gain in order to score points to only "win" a debate. I'm debating on the basic premise of seeking was is true and what is false, because I believe God's word when it says the truth will set you free.

Do you understand the difference in the 2 motives lorene?

[DeBunkem]

Huh? Debunkem if your personal logic weren't so sad it would be quite entertaining and amusing.

First you say the account of Saul going to this woman of Endor "makes no interpretation of itself" then you say you"make no attempt to spin this account to fit any PRECONCEPTIONS"

.....and all this rests on your beginning statement that this account can support the belief in ghosts.

Just how did you come to that conclusion if the event makes no mention of ghosts and you aren't trying to put your own spin on it????????

Saul sought a woman with a FAMILIAR SPIRIT to raise someone from the dead.
If scriptures aren't clear on some things to people reading it, it surely is clear that only God only is the lifegiver and can raise from the dead.

That was Saul's disobedience to God because he full well knew his scripture from the writings of Moses................and he knew it was wrong to do this.

Deut:18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
.............this woman was a consulter of devils and a necromancer.

Scripture is also clear that the dead have conscious being, so the real Samuel would have no knowledge of this woman calling him to rise up.

If you had read the account more closely you would have found that Saul did not see Samuel......he only PERCEIVED it to be Samuel as per this woman's description of what she saw and not what Saul had actually seen.

1Samuel 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

The dummy believed in an unbeliever of God. Saul just listened to this woman's description and falsely came to the conclusion that it was Samuel.

The key word in this account when Saul thought Samuel was speaking is DECEPTION......Saul was deceived by the devil. Deceived to think a consulter of familiar spirits had power to raise up dead people, deceived as the devil spoke thinking it to be Samuel, deceived because he, Saul was superstitious.......just a continuance of his disobedience to God.

His disobedience was only adding to God's reason to take the kingdom from him and give it to David.


So.............you say you make no attempt to put any spin on the stories in God's word, but you have done just the opposite. Your spin tries to say it's only a book of fables, nothing in it really happened. You say it can teach a number of different doctrines, although that would cause scripture to contradict itself, which it does not.

Debunkem, .........this really seems to be a PRECONCEPTION on your part, as I understand the definition of the word.


pre·con·cep·tion n. An opinion or a conception formed in advance of full or adequate knowledge or experience; a prejudice or bias

Your obvious reliance upon your own unsupported interpretation falls as flat as your ad hominem irrelevance. "DECEPTION" is the spin you put upon the account, and is not part of the story itself. What difference does it make if the medium raised Samuel as a "ghost" or a "familiar spirit"? Prove that there is any significance, and from the bible itself. Fact is, the account says it is SAMUEL, and the copyist never denies it or attempts to interpret what happened, as you do not hesitate to do; typical of so many who are blinded to their own pre-conceptions and cannot take such "disturbing" texts at face value. Furthermore, this spirit of SAMUEL prophecied correctly that Saul would be defeated and killed by the Philistines. From the NIV:

1 Samuel 28:8. . . "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."

14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

I see no reference to "deception" or "perception" or Devil. Prove otherwise. The fact that Saul was acting against Judean law is no proof that the spirit of Samuel was not raised.

]

[TheCatholic]

We all try to avoid sin. In so doing, we grow in holiness as time goes by. We are being perfected. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a "purging" of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God's perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where "nothing unclean" can enter demands the former.


Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I have been saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the "burning" ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.


This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God's love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - "purged" - away in the fire of Gods love. There's an old children's song, "God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way." Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?


Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.


This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

May I suggest that readers read this:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp