Is Purgatory really in the Holy Bible?

[Joshua]

This particular writing is about Purgatory, as you know Catholics believe in Purgatory.
Although Protestants do not believe in Purgatory.. but just Heaven for the Perfect and Hell for the Imperfect.
You may also been taught that the Bible does not teach Purgatory, but you may be shocked that it does.


The main body of Christians have always believed in the existence of a place between Heaven and Hell where souls go to be punished for lesser sins and to repay the debt of temporal punishment for sins which have been forgiven. Even after Moses was forgiven by God, he was still punished for his sin. (2 Kg. or 2 Sam. 12:13-14). The primitive Church Fathers regarded the doctrine of Purgatory as one of the basic tenets of the Christian faith. St. Augustine, one of the greatest doctors of the Church, said the doctrine of Purgatory ``has been received from the Fathers and it is observed by the Universal Church.'' True, the word ``Purgatory'' does not appear in the Bible, but a place where lesser sins are purged away and the soul is saved ``yet so as by fire,'' is mentioned. (1 Cor. 3:15). Also, the Bible distinguishes between those who enter Heaven straightaway, calling them ``the church of the firstborn'' (Heb. 12:23), and those who enter after having undergone a purgation, calling them ``the spirits of the just made perfect.'' (Heb. 12:23). Christ Himself stated: ``Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.'' (Matt. 5 :26). And: ``Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.'' (Matt. 12:36). These are obviously references to Purgatory. Further, the Second Book of Machabees (which was dropped from the Scriptures by the Protestant Reformers) says: ``It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.'' (2 Mach. 12:46). Ancient Christian tomb inscriptions from the second and third centuries frequently contain an appeal for prayers for the dead. In fact, the custom of praying for the dead--which is meaningless if there is no Purgatory--was universal among Christians for the fifteen centuries preceding the Protestant Reformation.
Furthermore, ordinary justice calls for a place of purgation between Heaven and Hell. Take our own courts of justice, for example. For major crimes a person is executed or sentenced to life imprisonment (Hell); for minor crimes a person is sentenced to temporary imprisonment for punishment and rehabilitation (Purgatory); for no crime at all a person is rewarded with the blessing of free citizenship (Heaven). If a thief steals some money, then regrets his deed and asks the victim for forgiveness, it is quite just for the victim to forgive him yet still insist on restitution. God, who is infinitely just, insists on holy restitution. This is made either in this life, by doing penance (Matt. 3:2; Luke 3:8, 13:3; Apoc. 3:2-3, 19), or in Purgatory .

Also, what Christian is there who, despite his faith in Christ and his sincere attempts to be Christlike, does not find sin and worldliness still in his heart? ``For in many things we all offend.'' (James 3:2). Yet ``there shall not enter into it [the new Jerusalem, Heaven] anything defiled.'' (Apoc. or Rev. 21:27). In Purgatory the soul is mercifully purified of all stain; there God carries out the work of spiritual purification which most Christians neglected and resisted on earth. It is important to remember that Catholics do not believe that Christ simply covers over their sinful souls, like covering a manure heap with a blanket of snow (Martin Luther's description of God's forgiveness). Rather, Christ insists that we be truly holy and sinless to the core of our souls. ``Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.'' (Matt. 5:48). This growth in sinlessness--in Christian virtue and holiness--is of course the work of an entire lifetime (and is possible only through the grace of God). With many this cleansing is completed only in Purgatory. If there is no Purgatory, but only Heaven for the perfect and Hell for the imperfect, then the vast majority of us are hoping in vain for life eternal in Heaven.

Catholic Apologetics - Joshua

[lorene]

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

Purgatory is a place between lives to be cleansed of all memory from the most recent past life.

yes, much is called into account there, and as one remembers the wicked things they said and did, the heat turns up, so to speak....but then that too is purged from their memory and they continue on their journey there.

If one spends time not focusing(which is hard to do) on their circumstances and past failures, they will see the fires dampen down somewhat and travel is made much easier as it is slow moving when the flames are high.

it is not a torturous place, but one that is not comfortable at all either. The frustration is high due to doors that lead to nowhere or to rooms that lead to no where and the hallway only moves and circles back around to where one starts...

[McCulloch]

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

Purgatory is a place between lives to be cleansed of all memory from the most recent past life.

yes, much is called into account there, and as one remembers the wicked things they said and did, the heat turns up, so to speak....but then that too is purged from their memory and they continue on their journey there.

If one spends time not focusing(which is hard to do) on their circumstances and past failures, they will see the fires dampen down somewhat and travel is made much easier as it is slow moving when the flames are high.

it is not a torturous place, but one that is not comfortable at all either. The frustration is high due to doors that lead to nowhere or to rooms that lead to no where and the hallway only moves and circles back around to where one starts...

I'm sure that if all we wanted was a description, we could go to any Roman Catholic source and get one. However, the question asked and not addressed was: Is Purgatory really in the Holy Bible?
Why do Catholics believe Purgatory is a Dogma?

[DeBunkem]

You can make a case for purgatory from the Bible, with special pleading, of course. King Saul went to the "witch" of Endor, who successfully summoned Samuel, Saul's old Yahwist advisor, from the dead. An illegal medium could hardly bring down a glorified soul from heaven, and it is hardly likely that Samuel was in hell. For that matter, Christians believe that Jesus was the first to be raised to heaven, so Samuel was somewhere else with the rest of the dead OT faithful. The NT also claims Jesus was somewhere else after crucifixion, preaching to imprisoned spirits. Purgatory sounds like a good bet.

[Manasseh_]

This particular writing is about Purgatory, as you know Catholics believe in Purgatory.
Although Protestants do not believe in Purgatory.. but just Heaven for the Perfect and Hell for the Imperfect.
You may also been taught that the Bible does not teach Purgatory, but you may be shocked that it does.

Catholic Apologetics - Joshua

Not at all shocked that someone would 'claim' that purgatory is taught in scripture, but the claim itself is unfounded according to scripture. It is although no more unfounded than to believe anyone, instantly at death goes to either "heaven" "hell" "purgatory" or even in some protestant circles a place called "paradise" is also taught.


God's word stands against all these claims regarding where the dead go and their state of "being". Scripture clearly states that all souls go to the grave until resurrection.

JOB 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

PSALMS 89:48 What man [is he that] liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.


......even a believer in God cannot remember God or give him thanks when going to the grave..........

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

I also noticed you quoted from the Apocrypha. The use of books that are not inspired by God as proof text also carry no weight in trying to convince that your purgatory is real. The Apocrypha is rampant with writings that emphatically contradict inspired Scriptures.

A few examples....................

Tobit 6:5-7 gives an example of how magic can drive away evil spirits, ie, the smoke from burning certain fish parts , such superstitious actions are not taught in scripture and even more so are commanded against.

Tobit 4:11 Tobit 12:9 teach that giving alms saves from death and purges sins, where in direct contradiction to this teaching Scriptures teach that only blood can do this.......in particular only Christ's blood sacrifice and his resurrection leading to our own saving resurrection from death.

Judith 1:5 states that Nebuchadnezzar was king of Assyria and that he reigned in "Ninive" Judith apparently didn't do her homework historically speaking. Had she done so she would have found that Nebuchadnezzar was king of Babylon and reigned there.

Baruch 6:2 states that the jews would serve the Babylonians for 7 generations, where Jeremiah said they would serve 70 years.......Jer. 25:11

(Sirach 38:21-23 says don't remember the dead, 2 Macc 12:44 says pray for the dead........should we believe here that 2 of God's servants are contradicting each other?

The apocryphal writings are false, not inspired by God and purgatory is an imagination of men not taught in God's word, so we don't have to really be "shocked" because some just claim that it is taught in scripture. We go only to the INERRANT word of God to find truth.



1THESSALONIANS 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

[DeBunkem]

This particular writing is about Purgatory, as you know Catholics believe in Purgatory.
Although Protestants do not believe in Purgatory.. but just Heaven for the Perfect and Hell for the Imperfect.
You may also been taught that the Bible does not teach Purgatory, but you may be shocked that it does.

Catholic Apologetics - Joshua

<CUT>

God's word stands against all these claims regarding where the dead go and their state of "being". Scripture clearly states that all souls go to the grave until resurrection.

The texts you cite and the contention above no more disprove Purgatory or anything else than the accounts I have mentioned. Taken all together, they only prove that anything is provable from this irrelevant book of fables.

The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one. David Hume

[lorene]

[quote="Manasseh

Not at all shocked that someone would 'claim' that purgatory is taught in scripture, but the claim itself is unfounded according to scripture. It is although no more unfounded than to believe anyone, instantly at death goes to either "heaven" "hell" "purgatory" or even in some protestant circles a place called "paradise" is also taught.

Actually yes the bible does teach those things...several times.

God's word stands against all these claims regarding where the dead go and their state of "being". Scripture clearly states that all souls go to the grave until resurrection.

No it does not.

JOB 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

Uh....????...

PSALMS 89:48 What man [is he that] liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again...????...

......even a believer in God cannot remember God or give him thanks when going to the grave..........

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

You said you thought this proved...What exactly?

I also noticed you quoted from the Apocrypha. The use of books that are not inspired by God as proof text also carry no weight in trying to convince that your purgatory is real. The Apocrypha is rampant with writings that emphatically contradict inspired Scriptures.

Well, Paul, James...and perhaps even Jesus certainly thought enough of them to quote them...

A few examples....................

Tobit 6:5-7 gives an example of how magic can drive away evil spirits, ie, the smoke from burning certain fish parts , such superstitious actions are not taught in scripture and even more so are commanded against.

Tobit 4:11 Tobit 12:9 teach that giving alms saves from death and purges sins, where in direct contradiction to this teaching Scriptures teach that only blood can do this.......in particular only Christ's blood sacrifice and his resurrection leading to our own saving resurrection from death.

Go learn what this means, "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice".

Judith 1:5 states that Nebuchadnezzar was king of Assyria and that he reigned in "Ninive" Judith apparently didn't do her homework historically speaking. Had she done so she would have found that Nebuchadnezzar was king of Babylon and reigned there.

I believe the Babylonians rebelled against and captured Nineveh...Was Neb. king then?...or sometime afterward? When was Judith first told?

(Sirach 38:21-23 says don't remember the dead,

Context really helps friend...

Sirach 38:16-23 My son, let tears fall down over the dead, and begin to lament, as if thou hadst suffered great harm thyself; and then cover his body according to the custom, and neglect not his burial.
Weep bitterly, and make great moan, and use lamentation, as he is worthy, and that a day or two, lest thou be evil spoken of: and then comfort thyself for thy heaviness. For of heaviness cometh death, and the heaviness of the heart breaketh strength.
In affliction also sorrow remaineth: and the life of the poor is the curse of the heart.
Take no heaviness to heart: drive it away, and member the last end. Forget it not, for there is no turning again: thou shalt not do him good, but hurt thyself.
Remember my judgment: for thine also shall be so; yesterday for me, and to day for thee.
When the dead is at rest, let his remembrance rest; and be comforted for him, when his Spirit is departed from him.

Not quite how you described it

2 Macc 12:44 says pray for the dead........should we believe here that 2 of God's servants are contradicting each other?

No, we should not believe that in this case now that we see the context, there.

The apocryphal writings are false, not inspired by God and purgatory is an imagination of men not taught in God's word, so we don't have to really be "shocked" because some just claim that it is taught in scripture. We go only to the INERRANT word of God to find truth.

The Apocrypha was in the...'inerrant' word in the beginning...Are you saying it(the bible) was not inerrant before it(The apocrypha) was removed.

[Manasseh_]

[quote="
The Apocrypha was in the...'inerrant' word in the beginning...Are you saying it(the bible) was not inerrant before it(The apocrypha) was removed.

Sorry to disappoint you lorene, but the apocrypha was not included in the 'inerrant' word of God in the beginning. The writings first began to appear after the Old Testament was translated to Greek from the Hebrew, around 200-100 BC. They never were in the original Hebrew texts. The greek translation is commonly known as the Septuagint. When Jerome began to translate he was struggling to decide whether he should include these writings. Early in his life he believed them to be inspired by God, but later in his life he had a change of heart and concluded they were not inspired by God, most likely because his studies showed him the errors and contradictions contained in the writings.

If you are a member of the Roman Catholic Church, you might want to ask that organization why they are three books short in their version of the original Apocrypha, since you feel they are inspired writings ????? The Roman Catholic version is missing 1Esdras ,2 Esdras also called 3 and 4 Esdras.......and Prayer of Manasses/Manasseh (also called Book of Odes). Are you going to ask your own church if they feel the bible is not the inerrant word of God because they decided not to include these books???

Today there are basically four different sets of the Apocrypha:
Catholic
Slavonic Orthodox
Greek Orthodox
Historical Coptic

It wasn't until the Council of Carthage AD 397 that the apocrypha was first championed by Augustine after Jerome's death. The apocrypha was even included in the original 1611 KingJamesVersion.....but after heavy protest from puritans it was removed after 1644.



So lorene,..............to answer your question directly , God's word is HOLY and He would have , through his almighty power kept the apocrypha within his word had they been inspired by him.

BTW , none of the writers of inspired scripture ever quoted from any of these writings, Christ and his apostles included.

GB


1THESSALONIANS 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

[Manasseh_]

This particular writing is about Purgatory, as you know Catholics believe in Purgatory.
Although Protestants do not believe in Purgatory.. but just Heaven for the Perfect and Hell for the Imperfect.
You may also been taught that the Bible does not teach Purgatory, but you may be shocked that it does.

Catholic Apologetics - Joshua

<CUT>

God's word stands against all these claims regarding where the dead go and their state of "being". Scripture clearly states that all souls go to the grave until resurrection.

The texts you cite and the contention above no more disprove Purgatory or anything else than the accounts I have mentioned. Taken all together, they only prove that anything is provable from this irrelevant book of fables.

The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one. David Hume

Hey DeBunkem......................


Biblical Premise........The dead go to the grave, they have no conscious being until resurrection.


Premise of Purgatory.......The dead are still alive, have conscious being and go to a "place" called Purgatory.

Regardless of whether you personally feel scripture is, as your words an "irrelevant book of fables" or not........there is still a contradiction between the doctrine and the actual writings of scripture.

The only logical conclusion one could come to is the aforementioned.

Your illogical conclusion comes only from your personal bias that scripture is just a book of "fables"

Bad form my friend, very bad form. Do you do this with other writings in whatever form they may be?

Seems your bias is the final cause for conclusion regardless of whether something is true or false.


" I don't believe the fire is hot because I have a personal bias against such an "irrelevant fable" therefore it can't cause me harm."


PROVERBS 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

[DeBunkem]

Dupe again