What's good for the Nazi works for a jihadi

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cnorman18

What's good for the Nazi works for a jihadi

Post #1

Post by cnorman18 »

Op-ed in today's Washington Times
Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper wrote:

What's good for the Nazi works for a jihadi

President Obama was right when he declared after convening the post mortem on the Detroit debacle that "we have to do better." The simple fact is that $42 billion later, Americans do not feel much safer getting on an airplane than they did eight years ago. Despite the post- Sept. 11 upgrades in security, despite the long lines, the inconveniences of removing shoes and belts and coming soon to an airport near you - full body scans - we are not reassured that the next disaster is not lurking just around the corner. People are concerned we aren't doing enough to fight the enemy and we're still not sure we've fully identified the enemy.

The administration and its Republican critics are still arguing whether Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan's Ft. Hood massacre constitutes an act of terrorism. That dispute is reflected in a larger debate of whether we are still in a "war against terror" and whether individuals like Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab should be treated as enemy combatants or read their Miranda Rights as common criminals.

But however that debate shakes out, there is an important move, that would cost little but could strike a blow against extremism and make our skies a little safer: The president admitted that the current watch list is inadequate. But America needs to immediately expand its terrorist watch list. Consider this fact: While the United States has a database of 500,000 individuals implicated in criminal activity, only 1,700 of those names are on the terrorist watch list banning entry into the United States. Compare that to the watch list developed by the U.S. Justice Department of suspected Nazi war criminals. Developed in the 1980s, 40,000 individuals were initially listed, but later the list expanded beyond 70,000 when the Office of Special Investigations on Nazi War Crimes (OSI) included the entire roster of the Nazi SS - and all others who belonged to groups that abetted genocide.

Most of those aging genociders are in their 80s or 90s today and the hunt for Nazi war criminals will soon reach its biological solution. But not so Islamist terrorism - only in its genesis - which is the scourge of all humanity at the dawn of the new decade. It is inconceivable that in fighting the existential threat of terrorism, that we can be operating with a list of only 1,700 people to bar from entering the United States. To better protect the flying public and to strike a blow against extremists who today regularly indescriminantly slaughter fellow Muslims, the Department of Homeland Security should take a page from the Nazi watch list and immediately add those who openly support and abet terrorism. In practical terms, it means immediately listing the many thousands of names of all known members and enablers of Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Indonesia's Jemmah Islamiyah and other terror groups listed by the State Department and the European Union.

And there are others who never fired a bullet, or strapped themselves to a ticking bomb, who nevertheless deserve to be publicly placed on America's terror watch list. They include Al Jazeera's Sheik Yusuf Qaradawi, whose online fatwa insists that Palestinian women have the right to attain martyrdom by blowing themselves up amidst Israelis. There is Omar Bakri Muhammad, who once claimed to be a recruiter for al Qaeda and organized the "Magnificent 19" (Sept. 11 bombers) in London. Jordan's Dr. Ibrahim Zayd Al-Kilani, who said this: "killing a transgressing American soldier" is an obligation and a kind of jihad. There are the followers of Indonesia's notorious Abu Bakar Bashir, Jamaica's Abdullah el-Faisel, and Libyan-born Abu Yaha al- Libi, who defends the "legitimacy" of violent jihad as a "religious obligation." And of course, Yemen's favorite American Anwar al-Awlaki who served as spiritual mentor and validator to Ft. Hood's Maj. Hasan and the Northwest Airlines terrorist.

We have no doubts that a simple e-mail to all U.S. embassies by Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton would flush out many more terror enablers. To be sure, errors will be made and anyone who stands accused of such activity must be given recourse to clear their names. It may also be true that not everyone who belongs to a terrorist group will become a suicide bomber, but let them suffer the consequences - why should Americans have to take that risk?

By compiling a true terror watch list, the United States and allies will reassure the shaken flying public that no one committed to terrorism against innocent civilians is aboard their flight. Such a policy will also help strengthen the hand of moderates across the Arab and Muslim world struggling against these extremists. And by providing the guardians of our borders with accurate and timely information about all those who promote and deploy terrorism against our nation, we can help co-opt the need to turn to blanket racial and ethnic profiling.

The time to act is now.


Rabbi Marvin Hier is the founder and dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Rabbi Abraham Cooper is associate dean of the Center.

It's hard to see how anyone of any religion or any political persuasion could disagree with this.

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Post #11

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

I'm for reasonable lists and effective profiling.

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Post #12

Post by East of Eden »

Abraxas wrote:Yes, such individuals do constitute a threat now. However, they don't have to. Simply making the cockpit inaccessible from the body of the plane and searching all luggage brought aboard removes them as a threat almost completely. Increase the number of Air Marshals, especially on international flights. Bottom line is these guys are really only a threat now because basic, obvious steps are not being taken.
About the only way to stop someone set up like the Christmas Day 'underwear bomber' would be using the full body scan technology, which in itself is problematic from a civil rights standpoint. There were enough warning signs from this guy that he should have been put on a no-fly list.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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Post #13

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What's good for a Nazi is apparently also good for a Likudist Apartheid regime. I refuse to be PC and wear blinders to the fact of Israel's Nazi-like treatment of Palestinians by putting them in a caged Warsaw-like ghetto. They keep up the squeeze and regularly attack and kill innocent civilians. Now they haven't even the former pretext of home-made rocket "attacks" on poor Israel. This is UN-banned "community responsibility." Their slow starvation of Palestinians is a slow "final solution." Like the Nazis, they have invaded and occupied a country and consider Arabs as sub-humans.
As for some increasingly cowardly Americans, they are willing to give up any freedom for a bit of security, and therefore will get neither, to paraphrase Franklin. So if a "jihadist" decides to carry a bomb inserted in rectum, you'll submit to body cavity searches as well as allow some knuckle-dragging SS type to do the same to your kids? If we get out of the ME and stop sending Israel our much-needed billions, the attacks would stop. When Spain wisely left Iraq, they stopped suffering major terrorist attacks. If these "Jihadists" were interested only in attacking Christians, why don't they go after Xtian countries that are not allied to the Oil Crusaders? Make no mistake...I'm no fan of Islam or terrorism, but of social justice and human rights. In Occupied Palestine, that's enough to get you beaten or shot by the IDF.

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Post #14

Post by East of Eden »

DeBunkem wrote:What's good for a Nazi is apparently also good for a Likudist Apartheid regime. I refuse to be PC and wear blinders to the fact of Israel's Nazi-like treatment of Palestinians by putting them in a caged Warsaw-like ghetto. They keep up the squeeze and regularly attack and kill innocent civilians. Now they haven't even the former pretext of home-made rocket "attacks" on poor Israel. This is UN-banned "community responsibility." Their slow starvation of Palestinians is a slow "final solution." Like the Nazis, they have invaded and occupied a country and consider Arabs as sub-humans.
And Muslims consider Jews apes and pigs.
As for some increasingly cowardly Americans, they are willing to give up any freedom for a bit of security, and therefore will get neither, to paraphrase Franklin. So if a "jihadist" decides to carry a bomb inserted in rectum, you'll submit to body cavity searches as well as allow some knuckle-dragging SS type to do the same to your kids? If we get out of the ME and stop sending Israel our much-needed billions, the attacks would stop. When Spain wisely left Iraq, they stopped suffering major terrorist attacks.
The planning for that attack began before Spain was in Iraq.
If these "Jihadists" were interested only in attacking Christians, why don't they go after Xtian countries that are not allied to the Oil Crusaders? Make no mistake...I'm no fan of Islam or terrorism, but of social justice and human rights. In Occupied Palestine, that's enough to get you beaten or shot by the IDF.
And to be beaten or shot in the Muslim world, all it takes is being Jewish. This is even happening in France.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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winning a country is not the same as winning the war

Post #15

Post by r~ »

Islamacists iNo were part of the axis powers in WWII. Those marked as leopard do not change their spots.

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Post #16

Post by DeBunkem »

East of Eden wrote:
DeBunkem wrote:What's good for a Nazi is apparently also good for a Likudist Apartheid regime. I refuse to be PC and wear blinders to the fact of Israel's Nazi-like treatment of Palestinians by putting them in a caged Warsaw-like ghetto. They keep up the squeeze and regularly attack and kill innocent civilians. Now they haven't even the former pretext of home-made rocket "attacks" on poor Israel. This is UN-banned "community responsibility." Their slow starvation of Palestinians is a slow "final solution." Like the Nazis, they have invaded and occupied a country and consider Arabs as sub-humans.
And Muslims consider Jews apes and pigs.
As for some increasingly cowardly Americans, they are willing to give up any freedom for a bit of security, and therefore will get neither, to paraphrase Franklin. So if a "jihadist" decides to carry a bomb inserted in rectum, you'll submit to body cavity searches as well as allow some knuckle-dragging SS type to do the same to your kids? If we get out of the ME and stop sending Israel our much-needed billions, the attacks would stop. When Spain wisely left Iraq, they stopped suffering major terrorist attacks.
The planning for that attack began before Spain was in Iraq.
If these "Jihadists" were interested only in attacking Christians, why don't they go after Xtian countries that are not allied to the Oil Crusaders? Make no mistake...I'm no fan of Islam or terrorism, but of social justice and human rights. In Occupied Palestine, that's enough to get you beaten or shot by the IDF.
And to be beaten or shot in the Muslim world, all it takes is being Jewish. This is even happening in France.
Jews and Arabs lived together peaceably in Palestine for centuries before the Zionist movement invaded and divided their communities. In the case of the Arabs, they destroyed their communities. Many fled, many were massacred. There are people that still call Blacks "apes" and "pigs", etc., but do not treat them as did the S. Africans, Israel's natural apartheid ally. The name calling is mutual. For every "jihadist" there is a trigger-happy Zionist settler that spews hate-filled racist vitriol. To be killed or arbitrarily jailed for years and tortured without trial in Israel, it is enough just to be an Arab. Even Christian Arabs are finding life under Zionist apartheid to be increasingly impossible, as reported in the National Geographic. I don't know where you get your insider info on the train attack in Spain, but the Bushite former President of Spain had to also make known long before deploying to Iraq...tipping off the terrorists. He lied about who was responsible, trying to hide the fact that Arab resentment is tied to agression against Arab countries. The Socialist president voted in soon found and destroyed the cell.
Compare how "Crusaders" treat prisoners in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib plus all the rendition hell-holes with how Iran has treated its Xtian prisoners, such as the Brit Navy crew. Nary a slap, much less drowning torture, humiliation, dog attacks, mutilation and the still-undisclosed tortures of the Crusaders too horrible to mention, according to Congress. Stop pretending you can't see the connection between Islamic terror and Xtian/Zionist terror. Before the advent of petrol-politics and Zionism, there was no enmity between the West and Islam for centuries. I will not descend into sillier and sillier media propaganda with anyone on this subject, since it is a national blind spot, like slavery in the South or the treatment of the Native Americans. I will say that if the tables were turned and it was the Jews who were being wronged in Palestine, I would be just as strongly on their side.

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Re: winning a country is not the same as winning the war

Post #17

Post by DeBunkem »

r~ wrote:Islamacists iNo were part of the axis powers in WWII. Those marked as leopard do not change their spots.

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Ottoman Turkey allied itself with the Axis, and were opposed by the Islamics. Turkey is now allied with the West...strictly pragmatic. On the other hand, Fascist Germany and Italy were Christians, and the real enemies of the Jews. Christian Serbs copied their example in attacking Muslim Serbia and running rape and extermination camps. How many more Xtian historical monstrosities do you want to hear....there's no end to them.

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Post #18

Post by DeBunkem »

This is even happening in France.
France's large Algerian population is a direct result of its Christian colonialist adventure there, fought with all the ferocity and and atrocity as present Oil Crusades in the suffering Occupied Islamic world. The extreme terror group formed as a direct result of this failed adventure turned on its own moderate population, causing many to flee their homeland to France, where they also live in poverty-stricken, high crime areas. You can find the same phenomenon in Watts and Harlem. Resentments fester.

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Re: What's good for the Nazi works for the Jihadi

Post #19

Post by Abraxas »

cnorman18 wrote:
Let's back up a minute here. For starters, we're not talking about arresting anybody or throwing anybody in prison; we're talking about not allowing them to fly on commercial airplanes. I think that's reasonable. You joined a Jihadi organization when you were 17 and now you're a moderate Muslim? Gee, that's too bad. Take a boat, drive, or walk. You pay for mistakes; that's life. Why should the rest of us take the risk?

Flying on commercial airplanes isn't a right, it's a privilege, and while I can't argue with anything you say above, none of it means that it's wrong or inefficient or unfair to keep a list of people who aren't allowed to get on the plane. That doesn't rule out any of the measures you recommend, all of which I applaud; but again, we can be a little less vigilant about "rights" when we're talking about commercial air flights as opposed to prison.
What I am saying is that by the time I consider you justified in taking away those kind of things, you could already have thrown them in prison. Before you start restricting them from things like air travel or whatever, in my opinion, they would have already been guilty of about 100 counts of conspiracy to commit murder, one for every individual on the plane.

I also think the "you pay for your mistakes", in particular when so much of this is dogma and being raised by nutjobs to begin with, isn't the way to go. I think that contributes to locking them into their destructive lifestyle, that it plays to the us vs. them mentality feeding their extremism. The classic rationale for suicide is the idea they have "no way out" which is really what those kind of isolationist tactics leave them, problem being they take people out with them when they go.

What you are also failing to realize is that, and I do hesitate to say this simply to avoid giving anyone ideas, but there are ways to cause destruction and death far greater than the amount you can get merely from blowing up a plane. Even if you manage to isolate these people from aircraft, you would do very little in the endgame to stop them from killing.

About the only way to stop someone set up like the Christmas Day 'underwear bomber' would be using the full body scan technology, which in itself is problematic from a civil rights standpoint. There were enough warning signs from this guy that he should have been put on a no-fly list.
Regarding that guy, I'd have to look into the device but I would imagine a combination of no metal through a metal detector, having all his carry on thoroughly searched, and not allowing any kind of combustibles on the plane would make it extremely hard to make himself explode. Explosives generally require ignition from either fire or an electrical detonator, (or chemical interactions hence banning liquids), remove those as possibilities and you remove almost all possibility for a bomb onboard.

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Post #20

Post by East of Eden »

DeBunkem wrote: Jews and Arabs lived together peaceably in Palestine for centuries before the Zionist movement invaded and divided their communities. In the case of the Arabs, they destroyed their communities. Many fled, many were massacred. There are people that still call Blacks "apes" and "pigs", etc., but do not treat them as did the S. Africans, Israel's natural apartheid ally.
Did South Africa detonate suicide bombers among blacks?
The name calling is mutual. For every "jihadist" there is a trigger-happy Zionist settler that spews hate-filled racist vitriol. To be killed or arbitrarily jailed for years and tortured without trial in Israel, it is enough just to be an Arab. Even Christian Arabs are finding life under Zionist apartheid to be increasingly impossible, as reported in the National Geographic. I don't know where you get your insider info on the train attack in Spain, but the Bushite former President of Spain had to also make known long before deploying to Iraq...tipping off the terrorists. He lied about who was responsible, trying to hide the fact that Arab resentment is tied to agression against Arab countries. The Socialist president voted in soon found and destroyed the cell.
So you're justifying the Madrid train bombings? :confused2:
Compare how "Crusaders" treat prisoners in Gitmo
What's wrong with how they're treated in Gitmo? Most have probably never lived better in their lives.
and Abu Ghraib
= typical prison in the Muslim world.
plus all the rendition hell-holes with how Iran has treated its Xtian prisoners, such as the Brit Navy crew. Nary a slap, much less drowning torture, humiliation, dog attacks, mutilation and the still-undisclosed tortures of the Crusaders too horrible to mention, according to Congress. Stop pretending you can't see the connection between Islamic terror and Xtian/Zionist terror. Before the advent of petrol-politics and Zionism, there was no enmity between the West and Islam for centuries.
Yes, the Muslim war on the West was suspended for a few centuries, mainly due to superior Western technology.
I will not descend into sillier and sillier media propaganda with anyone on this subject, since it is a national blind spot, like slavery in the South or the treatment of the Native Americans. I will say that if the tables were turned and it was the Jews who were being wronged in Palestine, I would be just as strongly on their side.
Larry Miller's rant on the Middle East crisis.
..


"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a
service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the
story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you
really need. Don't thank me.I'm a giver. Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about
that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was
called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian"
sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis
won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no
"Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there
were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and
started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say
hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their
lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any
more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our
deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's
call them what they are: "Other Arabs Accomplish Anything In Life And
Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal
Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on
CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."

Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just
one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country
any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp
David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic
lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you
actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no
fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want:
Israel.

They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course-that's where the
real fun is-but mostly they want Israel. Why?

For one thing, trying to destroy Israel-or "The Zionist Entity" as
their textbooks call it-for the last fifty years has allowed the
rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people
away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate,
poorest, and tribally backward on G-d's Earth, and if you've ever
been around G-d's Earth, you know that's really saying something. It
makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic
about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast.

Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the
world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that
one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five
million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field,
and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now
these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of
matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey,
but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and
the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the
sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just
reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five
million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it.

Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and
dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and
force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state
into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of
innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies
about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children?
Disgusting.

No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst
Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, G-d bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that
with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our
interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much
as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than
stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs
taken away. However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a
danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After
September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root
out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful.

Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent
of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the
same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we
would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be
done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east
of the Jordan.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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