Opposition to the spread of Islam in Europe..

[VermilionUK]

Considering recent events in Europe, including the Swiss minaret ban, and anti-Islam protests in London, it seems there is growing opposition to the spread of Islam.

In another thread, the Swiss minaret ban was referred to as "a case of religious discrimination and racism"

Question for debate/discussion: is the opposition to the spread of Islam "a case of religious discrimination and racism", or is it the growing fear of extremist Muslims which is making non-muslims fearful of Islam?

[JoeyKnothead]

Eh

I do not understand the ban. The main thing is that the people of different faiths can work together then it sets a good example. It is just a fun thing to fight about for those who are looking for a fight. Thus the example of violent extremists should not be linked with any one religion, no matter the past events, you cannot move forward if you are looking in the past.

Merci

Berty

I can predict, with a quite high degree of certainty, that there'll be a religious based attack in the future. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it and all that.

As we try to create a better future, we must let the events of the recent past inform our decisions. This includes the good and the bad.

I don't care how anyone wishes to classify my fear of Islamic extremism - it's real, and it's confirmed on an almost daily basis. I agree there are other folks committing horrible acts, but I just don't see them in the numbers Islamic extremists are able to produce.

TrueReligion brings up a great point though, in the illegal war against Iraq. We have no real justification for being there, it is a war for oil, and we must remove our troops ASAP if we are to have any credibility in the area.

When we bomb others we should only expect them to bomb us back. That said, I still don't think Islamic extremists have any legitimacy, in that they specifically target the weakest among populations.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Islamophobia is clearly not racism by virtue of the fact that Islam transcends race. Therefore?

If one acknowledges it as xenophobia rather than racism, wherein is the value? You've managed to win a technical point at the expense of a moral one, since the clear inference is that Islamophobia is somehow 'better' (or more acceptable) than racism.

The opposition of the expansion of Islam is not xenophobia, because xenophobia is, according to definition:

"An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

It's interesting how you manipulate the word "them". Shall we take it to mean Muslims or "certain sects"? Wikipedia reports a Muslim population in Europe slightly exceeding 38 million. What percentage would you suggest support beheading non-Muslims? Based on what information? Or is yours merely a case of "unreasonable fear or hatred ... of that which is foreign or strange"?

And the more personal and pertinent question is: Why do you persist in serving as liberal [sic!] apologist for rabid Islamophobia?

[VermilionUK]

Islamophobia is clearly not racism by virtue of the fact that Islam transcends race. Therefore?

If one acknowledges it as xenophobia rather than racism, wherein is the value? You've managed to win a technical point at the expense of a moral one, since the clear inference is that Islamophobia is somehow 'better' (or more acceptable) than racism.

The opposition of the expansion of Islam is not xenophobia, because xenophobia is, according to definition:

"An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

It's interesting how you manipulate the word "them". Shall we take it to mean Muslims or "certain sects"? Wikipedia reports a Muslim population in Europe slightly exceeding 38 million. What percentage would you suggest support beheading non-Muslims? Based on what information? Or is yours merely a case of "unreasonable fear or hatred ... of that which is foreign or strange"?

I did not intend to manipulate the word "them".

I'll explain the sentence:

"If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

The word "their" in that sentence is in reference to the sects within the Muslim community who proclaim that non-muslims should be "beheaded" and other such statements.

The word "them" in the sentence refers to the Muslim community as a whole. I state that it is not an unreasonable fear/hatred (although it would be wise to point out I do not hate Muslims, and have several Muslim friends myself) of the wider community because of those groups within it.

Although, I think you're becoming too bogged down in analysing my sentences - and I'd ask you to request I clarify what I say rather than spew out sarcastic remarks or accusations.

And the more personal and pertinent question is: Why do you persist in serving as liberal [sic!] apologist for rabid Islamophobia?

I'm trying to show that some people are labelled as Islamophobic even though they don't have an unreasonable fear (I'll leave out the word hatred, because I believe that the majority of those who would be classed as "Islamophobic" do not hate the Muslim community - but instead fear what some within that community stand for) of the Muslim community.

In fact, they have a very reasonable fear, some people within the Muslim community protest to kill Europeans and bring upon another holocaust. Is that not reason for a certain degree of fear?

I'd agree that those groups are small in comparison with the Muslim community as a whole, however these groups are very vocal, and as such they warrant our attention and concern.

A prime example is Al-Qaeda, who are a small group in comparison to the wider community, but look what they did/do. The size of the extremist groups in comparison to their wider community is irrelevant.

I hope all is now clear Mr Soule. I await your next sarcastic remark and accusation...

[Jayhawker Soule]

Islamophobia is clearly not racism by virtue of the fact that Islam transcends race. Therefore?

If one acknowledges it as xenophobia rather than racism, wherein is the value? You've managed to win a technical point at the expense of a moral one, since the clear inference is that Islamophobia is somehow 'better' (or more acceptable) than racism.

The opposition of the expansion of Islam is not xenophobia, because xenophobia is, according to definition:

"An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

It's interesting how you manipulate the word "them". Shall we take it to mean Muslims or "certain sects"? Wikipedia reports a Muslim population in Europe slightly exceeding 38 million. What percentage would you suggest support beheading non-Muslims? Based on what information? Or is yours merely a case of "unreasonable fear or hatred ... of that which is foreign or strange"?

I did not intend to manipulate the word "them".

I'll explain the sentence:

"If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

The word "their" in that sentence is in reference to the sects within the Muslim community who proclaim that non-muslims should be "beheaded" and other such statements.

The word "them" in the sentence refers to the Muslim community as a whole. I state that it is not an unreasonable fear/hatred (although it would be wise to point out I do not hate Muslims, and have several Muslim friends myself) of the wider community because of those groups within it.

Again: what percentage of the roughly 38 million European Muslims, i.e., of the "Muslim community as a whole," do you believe stand for beheading non-Muslims?

Can you see the similarity between your position and that of the person who points to Black crime as a justification for segregation, arguing it to be reasonable rather than racist?

[VermilionUK]

Islamophobia is clearly not racism by virtue of the fact that Islam transcends race. Therefore?

If one acknowledges it as xenophobia rather than racism, wherein is the value? You've managed to win a technical point at the expense of a moral one, since the clear inference is that Islamophobia is somehow 'better' (or more acceptable) than racism.

The opposition of the expansion of Islam is not xenophobia, because xenophobia is, according to definition:

"An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

It's interesting how you manipulate the word "them". Shall we take it to mean Muslims or "certain sects"? Wikipedia reports a Muslim population in Europe slightly exceeding 38 million. What percentage would you suggest support beheading non-Muslims? Based on what information? Or is yours merely a case of "unreasonable fear or hatred ... of that which is foreign or strange"?

I did not intend to manipulate the word "them".

I'll explain the sentence:

"If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

The word "their" in that sentence is in reference to the sects within the Muslim community who proclaim that non-muslims should be "beheaded" and other such statements.

The word "them" in the sentence refers to the Muslim community as a whole. I state that it is not an unreasonable fear/hatred (although it would be wise to point out I do not hate Muslims, and have several Muslim friends myself) of the wider community because of those groups within it.

Again: what percentage of the roughly 38 million European Muslims, i.e., of the "Muslim community as a whole," do you believe stand for beheading non-Muslims?

It's a ridiculous question that I could not possibly answer. It's an incredibly small percentage no doubt, hence why I wrote :

I'd agree that those groups are small in comparison with the Muslim community as a whole, however these groups are very vocal, and as such they warrant our attention and concern.

Can you see the similarity between your position and that of the person who points to Black crime as a justification for segregation, arguing it to be reasonable rather than racist?

This is just an attempt to tie me to racist groups who want segregation.
Segregation is racist.
Stating that there is a good reason to fear the spread of Islam is not.

Of course, the fact that the "certain sects" of the Muslim community are tiny in comparison to the wider Muslim population is worth noting- and as such there's no reason to fear every single Muslim that you encounter.
However, I argue that it is reasonable for non-Islamic countries to ensure that the extremists within the Muslim community are not given any room to breathe. I'm all for free speech, but calling for death on a mass scale is way too far.

You no doubt think I'm an evil liberal-islamophobic-bigot , but all I've been trying to say is that there is a good reason why some people are opposed to the spread of Islam, or who are fearful of Muslims. I just wish people would stop being so PC and admit that there's a problem and it needs sorting out.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Islamophobia is clearly not racism by virtue of the fact that Islam transcends race. Therefore?

If one acknowledges it as xenophobia rather than racism, wherein is the value? You've managed to win a technical point at the expense of a moral one, since the clear inference is that Islamophobia is somehow 'better' (or more acceptable) than racism.

The opposition of the expansion of Islam is not xenophobia, because xenophobia is, according to definition:

"An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

It's interesting how you manipulate the word "them". Shall we take it to mean Muslims or "certain sects"? Wikipedia reports a Muslim population in Europe slightly exceeding 38 million. What percentage would you suggest support beheading non-Muslims? Based on what information? Or is yours merely a case of "unreasonable fear or hatred ... of that which is foreign or strange"?

I did not intend to manipulate the word "them".

I'll explain the sentence:

"If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

The word "their" in that sentence is in reference to the sects within the Muslim community who proclaim that non-muslims should be "beheaded" and other such statements.

The word "them" in the sentence refers to the Muslim community as a whole. I state that it is not an unreasonable fear/hatred (although it would be wise to point out I do not hate Muslims, and have several Muslim friends myself) of the wider community because of those groups within it.

Again: what percentage of the roughly 38 million European Muslims, i.e., of the "Muslim community as a whole," do you believe stand for beheading non-Muslims?

It's a ridiculous question that I could not possibly answer. It's an incredibly small percentage no doubt, hence why I wrote :

I'd agree that those groups are small in comparison with the Muslim community as a whole, however these groups are very vocal, and as such they warrant our attention and concern.

Can you see the similarity between your position and that of the person who points to Black crime as a justification for segregation, arguing it to be reasonable rather than racist?

This is just an attempt to tie me to racist groups who want segregation.
Segregation is racist.
Stating that there is a good reason to fear the spread of Islam is not.

[center]< -- snip -- >[/center]
You no doubt think I'm an evil liberal-islamophobic-bigot , ...

What I think is that you assiduously avoid answering my questions.

[VermilionUK]

Islamophobia is clearly not racism by virtue of the fact that Islam transcends race. Therefore?

If one acknowledges it as xenophobia rather than racism, wherein is the value? You've managed to win a technical point at the expense of a moral one, since the clear inference is that Islamophobia is somehow 'better' (or more acceptable) than racism.

The opposition of the expansion of Islam is not xenophobia, because xenophobia is, according to definition:

"An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

It's interesting how you manipulate the word "them". Shall we take it to mean Muslims or "certain sects"? Wikipedia reports a Muslim population in Europe slightly exceeding 38 million. What percentage would you suggest support beheading non-Muslims? Based on what information? Or is yours merely a case of "unreasonable fear or hatred ... of that which is foreign or strange"?

I did not intend to manipulate the word "them".

I'll explain the sentence:

"If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

The word "their" in that sentence is in reference to the sects within the Muslim community who proclaim that non-muslims should be "beheaded" and other such statements.

The word "them" in the sentence refers to the Muslim community as a whole. I state that it is not an unreasonable fear/hatred (although it would be wise to point out I do not hate Muslims, and have several Muslim friends myself) of the wider community because of those groups within it.

Again: what percentage of the roughly 38 million European Muslims, i.e., of the "Muslim community as a whole," do you believe stand for beheading non-Muslims?

It's a ridiculous question that I could not possibly answer. It's an incredibly small percentage no doubt, hence why I wrote :

I'd agree that those groups are small in comparison with the Muslim community as a whole, however these groups are very vocal, and as such they warrant our attention and concern.

Can you see the similarity between your position and that of the person who points to Black crime as a justification for segregation, arguing it to be reasonable rather than racist?

This is just an attempt to tie me to racist groups who want segregation.
Segregation is racist.
Stating that there is a good reason to fear the spread of Islam is not.

[center]< -- snip -- >[/center]
You no doubt think I'm an evil liberal-islamophobic-bigot , ...

What I think is that you assiduously avoid answering my questions.

State what question I have not answered and I'll answer it.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Islamophobia is clearly not racism by virtue of the fact that Islam transcends race. Therefore?

If one acknowledges it as xenophobia rather than racism, wherein is the value? You've managed to win a technical point at the expense of a moral one, since the clear inference is that Islamophobia is somehow 'better' (or more acceptable) than racism.

The opposition of the expansion of Islam is not xenophobia, because xenophobia is, according to definition:

"An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

It's interesting how you manipulate the word "them". Shall we take it to mean Muslims or "certain sects"? Wikipedia reports a Muslim population in Europe slightly exceeding 38 million. What percentage would you suggest support beheading non-Muslims? Based on what information? Or is yours merely a case of "unreasonable fear or hatred ... of that which is foreign or strange"?

I did not intend to manipulate the word "them".

I'll explain the sentence:

"If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

The word "their" in that sentence is in reference to the sects within the Muslim community who proclaim that non-muslims should be "beheaded" and other such statements.

The word "them" in the sentence refers to the Muslim community as a whole. I state that it is not an unreasonable fear/hatred (although it would be wise to point out I do not hate Muslims, and have several Muslim friends myself) of the wider community because of those groups within it.

Again: what percentage of the roughly 38 million European Muslims, i.e., of the "Muslim community as a whole," do you believe stand for beheading non-Muslims?

It's a ridiculous question that I could not possibly answer. It's an incredibly small percentage no doubt, hence why I wrote :

I'd agree that those groups are small in comparison with the Muslim community as a whole, however these groups are very vocal, and as such they warrant our attention and concern.

Can you see the similarity between your position and that of the person who points to Black crime as a justification for segregation, arguing it to be reasonable rather than racist?

This is just an attempt to tie me to racist groups who want segregation. Segregation is racist. Stating that there is a good reason to fear the spread of Islam is not.

[center]< -- snip -- >[/center]
You no doubt think I'm an evil liberal-islamophobic-bigot , ...

What I think is that you assiduously avoid answering my questions.

State what question I have not answered and I'll answer it.

Please see above.

[VermilionUK]

Islamophobia is clearly not racism by virtue of the fact that Islam transcends race. Therefore?

If one acknowledges it as xenophobia rather than racism, wherein is the value? You've managed to win a technical point at the expense of a moral one, since the clear inference is that Islamophobia is somehow 'better' (or more acceptable) than racism.

The opposition of the expansion of Islam is not xenophobia, because xenophobia is, according to definition:

"An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

It's interesting how you manipulate the word "them". Shall we take it to mean Muslims or "certain sects"? Wikipedia reports a Muslim population in Europe slightly exceeding 38 million. What percentage would you suggest support beheading non-Muslims? Based on what information? Or is yours merely a case of "unreasonable fear or hatred ... of that which is foreign or strange"?

I did not intend to manipulate the word "them".

I'll explain the sentence:

"If certain sects within a group proclaim that those who do not follow their methods/ways should be "beheaded", "Killed" or "executed", then I think that to fear them is not "An unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

The word "their" in that sentence is in reference to the sects within the Muslim community who proclaim that non-muslims should be "beheaded" and other such statements.

The word "them" in the sentence refers to the Muslim community as a whole. I state that it is not an unreasonable fear/hatred (although it would be wise to point out I do not hate Muslims, and have several Muslim friends myself) of the wider community because of those groups within it.

Again: what percentage of the roughly 38 million European Muslims, i.e., of the "Muslim community as a whole," do you believe stand for beheading non-Muslims?

It's a ridiculous question that I could not possibly answer. It's an incredibly small percentage no doubt, hence why I wrote :

I'd agree that those groups are small in comparison with the Muslim community as a whole, however these groups are very vocal, and as such they warrant our attention and concern.

Can you see the similarity between your position and that of the person who points to Black crime as a justification for segregation, arguing it to be reasonable rather than racist?

This is just an attempt to tie me to racist groups who want segregation. Segregation is racist. Stating that there is a good reason to fear the spread of Islam is not.

[center]< -- snip -- >[/center]
You no doubt think I'm an evil liberal-islamophobic-bigot , ...

What I think is that you assiduously avoid answering my questions.

State what question I have not answered and I'll answer it.

Please see above.

Please read my posts. I did answer

Can you see the similarity between your position and that of the person who points to Black crime as a justification for segregation, arguing it to be reasonable rather than racist?

To answer in a word: No

Why do I say no?

Segregation is racist.
Stating that there is a good reason to fear the spread of Islam is not.

I do not see the similarity between my position and "that of the person who points to Black crime as a justification for segregation, arguing it to be reasonable rather than racist".

Those who "point to Black crime as a justification for segregation, arguing it to be reasonable rather than racist" are generally racists themselves, who are seeking justification for their hidden motives. However I have no hidden motive; I have no objection to the general Muslim community. I have Muslim friends, I chat with the Muslims at my local chippy (Fish and Chips shop) and generally get along with Muslims.

[Jayhawker Soule]

You 'answer' the first question by labeling it ridiculous. And then you offer the most amazing argument:

• Those who "point to Black crime as a justification for segregation, arguing it to be reasonable rather than racist" are generally racists themselves, ...

In other words, we are to believe that your argument is less bigoted because you claim that your intentions are less bigoted, i.e., your 'logic' may well be identical but its OK in your case because your intentions are pure or, more simply, your argument is OK because you're OK -- you promise. Please ...

I'm frankly not at all interested in your "some of my best friends are" assurances. Your argument for the segregation of Muslims is identical to that employed by white racists. The argument is either valid or invalid. Which is it?