Faith and Works

[McCulloch]

The Bible says they are justified by faith.

Well, to be accurate, Paul of Tarsus says that they are justified by faith. There is very little about this idea in the rest of the Bible. James and Jesus seem to teach something quite different.

[edit after moving from another debate]
Question for debate: Is the doctrine of salvation by faith alone one that can be found only in Paul's writings or is it a doctrine that is taught elsewhere in the Bible?

[Skyler]

As far the faith vs. works goes, I think Paul makes it pretty clear that it's faith, not works, that saves a person

Acutally, it's not that clear. 3/4 of all the worlds Christians actually think that it's both faith and works that save a person. Numbers: 2.1 Christians worldwide; 1 billion Catholics; 300-400 million Eastern Orthodox. Add to this the liberal believers who think that both faith and works saves, and you have the vast majority of Christians. But I have something else I want to point out.

Only 2.1 Christians? Who's the .1?

Let's say for instance that you are right in your interpretations of Paul and James.
Paul says that salvation is by faith alone. James says that faith without works is a dead, unsaving faith. In other words, it's both faith and works that saves. Because faith without works doesn't save. This means that faith alone does nothing for the believer. But, like I pointed out, most Christians don't believe in sola fide.

To return to my analogy, that's like saying a lightbulb without heat doesn't emit light. No, it doesn't, because it's not on. There is a connection but the one does not cause the other.

And I realize that many Christians don't believe in sola fide. I would comment that many of those who don't haven't studied their position thoroughly, though there are undoubtedly many who have. Also I would add that I do not believe the Roman Catholic church is Christian.

This doesn't mean that works saves a person or that there is a contradiction. That would be like one person saying "A lightbulb emits out light" and another saying "A lightbulb emits out heat".

Your analogy is invalid. To take your view of Paul and James on faith and works, your analogy would have to look more like this:

Person 1. A lightbulb emits light, without heat.
Person 2. A lightbulb emits both light and heat.

That is a conradiction, if one wants to think that both are true. But it's obviousl that both cannot be true.

First of all I just noticed that my grammar was terrible there. "Emits out"? I mean, come on!

I had originally put "puts out" but decided that wasn't right, so I changed it to "emits" but left the "out" in. [/irrelevant side issue]

I don't think that Paul says that faith doesn't produce works. He says that works do not save us, which is true. I'm not an expert on Paul though, so maybe if you could show me what you're talking about I'll look into it a bit more.

Skyler

[msmcneal]

Only 2.1 Christians? Who's the .1?

Some one legged guy in Russia. No, I think I meant 2.1 billion.

First of all I just noticed that my grammar was terrible there. "Emits out"? I mean, come on! I had originally put "puts out" but decided that wasn't right, so I changed it to "emits" but left the "out" in.

I think I've made probably about a dozen or so grammatial gaffes here. It's normal.

Also I would add that I do not believe the Roman Catholic church is Christian

That's certainly your right, but I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the Catholic church off hand, of course, I'm former Eastern Orthodox. So I guess, Christian-wise, I tend to be a bit biased for the traditional crowd.

And I realize that many Christians don't believe in sola fide. I would comment that many of those who don't haven't studied their position thoroughly, though there are undoubtedly many who have

I won't necessarily disagree with this. But I would also argue that MOST Christians have never studied their own theology enough to know why they believe what they do. Also, at least as far as the Eastern Orthodox church is concerned, not only do you learn why they believe in faith and works for salvation in catechism, they make studying theology a hobby. Almost every Orthodox Christian I ever came in contact with in real life or on the internet habitually studied Orthodox theology. Now, this doesn't automatically make them right, just that most have done their homework. I actually studied it for about four years before leaving my Penteocstal/Baptist background and converting to it.

I don't think that Paul says that faith doesn't produce works

No argument. A good example would be Ephesians 2:8-10. Most Protestants, when quoting that passage, stop at verse 9. But 10 is the kicker.

He says that works do not save us, which is true

You'll get no argument from me there, either. But, as has already been pointed out in this thread, I'm just of the opinion that James taught otherwise.

I'm not an expert on Paul though, so maybe if you could show me what you're talking about I'll look into it a bit more.

Paul is oftentimes hard to follow. When I was a Christian, I was of the opinion that his main theological thrust was a mystical life in Christ. I think he taught a duelism that completely separated the physical and the spiritual. Now, I don't disagree that Paul taught salvation by faith alone. But I do disagree on his argument for it. I always thought James, and Jesus, for that matter, taught salvation by faith and works, and it was in this that I found a good philosophy. I always thought Paul focused on faith more due to my views that he was more concerned with the spiritual than the physical. James always seemed more "down to earth". Of course, being a former Orthodox, I seen salvation as a continual process, and not an instantaneous event.

[Amos]

I don't think that Paul says that faith doesn't produce works. He says that works do not save us, which is true.
Skyler

Paul says we are not saved by the works of the Law of Moses in Romans. He says we're not saved by meritorious works (we can't earn salvation) in Ephesians 2. Nowhere does he say we are saved by faith alone. Nowhere does Paul deny the necessity of obedience to the commandments of God for salvation.

Romans 2:5-11 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds�: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Romans 6:16-18 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Paul and James and Jesus are in perfect agreement when it comes to faith and works. We must have faith that causes us to obey God in order to be saved.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

[Skyler]

I don't think that Paul says that faith doesn't produce works

No argument. A good example would be Ephesians 2:8-10. Most Protestants, when quoting that passage, stop at verse 9. But 10 is the kicker.

I'll transcribe:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

He says that we have been saved through faith, not works, in order that we can do good works. I'm sure you're probably right that most people stop at verse 9--I usually do:D--but I don't think it does anything more than strengthen my point.

I'm not an expert on Paul though, so maybe if you could show me what you're talking about I'll look into it a bit more.

Paul is oftentimes hard to follow. When I was a Christian, I was of the opinion that his main theological thrust was a mystical life in Christ. I think he taught a duelism that completely separated the physical and the spiritual. Now, I don't disagree that Paul taught salvation by faith alone. But I do disagree on his argument for it. I always thought James, and Jesus, for that matter, taught salvation by faith and works, and it was in this that I found a good philosophy. I always thought Paul focused on faith more due to my views that he was more concerned with the spiritual than the physical. James always seemed more "down to earth". Of course, being a former Orthodox, I seen salvation as a continual process, and not an instantaneous event.

James and Paul were probably writing to different people with different needs. Paul wrote addressing some "Judaizers" who taught that it was possible to gain salvation by works; James addressed some people who thought that they could get to heaven without works. Because both were addressing different issues, they both used different arguments and different styles, so one epistle or the other could be more applicable to a certain situation.

[msmcneal]

I'll transcribe:
Quote:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


He says that we have been saved through faith, not works, in order that we can do good works. I'm sure you're probably right that most people stop at verse 9--I usually do:D--but I don't think it does anything more than strengthen my point.

That was actually the point I was trying to make. I just don't think I was clear on it.

James and Paul were probably writing to different people with different needs. Paul wrote addressing some "Judaizers" who taught that it was possible to gain salvation by works; James addressed some people who thought that they could get to heaven without works. Because both were addressing different issues, they both used different arguments and different styles, so one epistle or the other could be more applicable to a certain situation

I can kind of see that.

[dschultz]

Salvation by faith alone is found nowhere in the Bible, including Paul's writings. Faith alone is a huge misunderstanding of Paul's words. Indeed you will find several passages that say salvation is by faith, but never will you find 'faith ALONE'. Skyler writes that Paul was adressing Judaizers who taught the possibility of salvation by works. This statement could not be more wrong. Judaism has never believed that salvation is attained by works. Judaism always has, and still does teach that salvation comes by faith. Works of Torah in Judaism do not save a person. Faith saves a person. But as James says; 'faith without works is dead, in and of itself.' Christians in general do not understand Judaism, and generally believe that Judaism teaches that obedience to Torah (Law) is what saves a person. On the contrary, Judaism teaches that G-d saves, by grace, through faith, unto obedience. Torah (the Law) in Judaism is G-d's teachings, or instructions. To a Jew, if you have faith in G-d, you will follow His teachings and instuctions. Obedience is a response to faith. When James says faith without works is dead, he provides an example: the demons believe G-d is one, and shudder. Faith and belief are two different things. Faith requires trust and action. Belief requires nothing more. The demons 'believe' G-d is real, but they do not put their trust in Him and give Him their obedience. This kind of 'faith' is dead. It is no faith at all, and it will not save. I can believe that G-d is real, and that He sent His Son, who died and was ressurected, but this will not save me. What saves me is my belief AND my response to this. Belief + positive response = 'Faith'. Paul's understanding of faith was exactly that; belief, trust, and response. So when he says that you are saved by faith, apart from works of the law, he is saying the same thing as James. Belief must be accompanied by action; a change in thinking and behavior. That is 'saving faith'. No one can earn their salvation. We are all undeserving. That is where grace comes in. Grace is unmerited favor. G-d's offer of salvation is a free gift that no one can earn. However, you must choose to accept that free gift. And in order to do so, you must place your trust in Him, and submit to Him in obedience. That is how you accept this free gift. Being obedient to G-d does not change the fact that the gift of salvation was not earned. But trying to be obedient in order to earn salvation will not work either. This is what Paul was preaching against. Obeying G-d's law will not save you. Faith in G-d will save you, and obedience is the appropriate response to salvation, which proves that your faith is real. The gift of salvation is only available to you because Yeshua (Jesus) paid the penalty for your sins when He became a sin sacrifice on your behalf. When G-d forgives your sins based on the sacrifice of His Son, and you become a beneficiary of that sacrifice, if you do not graciously and humbly follow Him in obedience, you count the blood of Messiah as a common thing. If I were to give you a free gift (you did nothing to earn it) and you took it from me and threw it on the ground, then you made the decision not accept that gift. When a person tries to accept the forgiveness of their sins (the gift) and does not respond in loving obedience (throws it on the ground), then they have in essence rejected the gift (salvation). The gift is free, but the choice to accept it is yours. To accept you must have faith in the Son of G-d, Yeshua the Messiah. To have TRUE faith, you must respond with a change of heart. A change of heart will produce a change in behavior. And that change is repentance and obedience to G-d through faith in His Son. So you see that you are saved by faith, but faith is more than a mental awareness of facts. Faith means placing your trust in G-d, and living a life of obedience to Him. To accept Yeshua as Lord of your life demands obedience to Him. James spells out the difference between saving faith, or true faith, and dead faith. True faith includes action; response. Dead faith does not, and dead faith is no faith at all. When Yeshua said you will know them by their fruits, He meant just that. If you say you have faith, but do not prove it by your actions, the faith that you claim to have is dead. If you have true faith, your actions will prove it. James, Paul, and Yeshua all preached the same message. Paul never said 'faith alone' saves. He only said that works of the law did not save. To be sure, you are saved by faith apart from works of the law. However, works of the law is obedience to G-d, and this is the appropriate response to your free gift of salvation. The works you do show that your faith is genuine. They show that you have faith, and not belief only. Satan believes and even KNOWS that G-d is real. He knows that Yeshua is G-d's Son. He knows that G-d is in control. Yes, he believes all this, but still he does not have faith. Faith requires a commitment. This, he will not do.

[myth-one.com]

Salvation by faith alone is found nowhere in the Bible, including Paul's writings. Faith alone is a huge misunderstanding of Paul's words. Indeed you will find several passages that say salvation is by faith, but never will you find 'faith ALONE'.

If "salvation is by faith," as you say; why is it necessary to qualify that answer by saying "salvation is by faith alone?" If that was not the sole requirement, the others would have been listed.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Is there power in faith? Suppose every single German except Adolf Hitler believed that no one should be murdered simply because they were Jewish. If every German except Hitler had faith in this belief, would there have been a holocaust?

The problem is that faith alone has potential power! It's like water on a mountain top. While restrained it has no power, but it represents a potential source of power. That potential power becomes a real force only if the water is somehow released and gushes down the mountain.

So even if Hitler had been the only German actively seeking to annihilate the Jews, there might still have been a holocaust if no others acted on their beliefs. Beliefs of themselves cannot be seen.

But what if someone did act on their belief?

Let's look at a true story which occurred I believe in Norway. When Germany conquered Norway during World War II, they announced that all Jews would have to wear the Star of David armband on their sleeves at all times. But the King of Norway believed this to be unfair. The day the edict went into affect, the King publicly wore an armband with the Star of David. Shortly thereafter, many of his former subjects also wore the star of David armbands -- making the roundup of Jews in Norway much more difficult!

Acts based on beliefs are substantive. But it sometimes takes courage to perform acts based on our beliefs. If the King did not act on his beliefs, he would have been the same man, except perhaps not as courageous. But either way, if he believed in Jesus he is saved!

I believe this is what the Bible means when it discusses faith without works to be dead:

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I can believe that G-d is real, and that He sent His Son, who died and was resurrected, but this will not save me.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

What saves me is my belief AND my response to this. Belief + positive response = 'Faith'.

So it should be like this?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him and responds in a positive way, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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[InTheFlesh]

Faith without works is dead.
Do we have dead faith?
I say not!