King James Bible

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McCulloch
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King James Bible

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

drhoecker wrote:[...] I extracted it from the King James Bible ,(the kjv is most acurate to date )
The Authorized King James Version is an English translation of the Christian Bible begun in 1604 and completed in 1611 by the Church of England. This was the third such official translation into English; the first having been the Great Bible commissioned by the Church of England in the reign of King Henry VIII, and the second having been the Bishop's Bible of 1568.

James gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs about an ordained clergy. The translation was done by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England. In common with most other translations of the period, the New Testament was translated from the Textus Receptus series of the Greek texts. The Old Testament was translated from the Masoretic Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek Septuagint (LXX), except for 2 Esdras, which was translated from the Latin Vulgate.

In addition to the original 1611 edition there have been numerous other corrected editions: the Cambridge editions of 1629, 1638 and 1762 and the 1769 Oxford edition.

Question for debate: what possible reason could there be to claim that any of these editions are the most accurate translation of the Bible into English?
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Re: King James Bible

Post #21

Post by cholland »

goat wrote:The mere fact that if you read any of them, you get a different slant on things depending on the religion.

If you compare Christian translations with Jewish ones, there is a slant to the Christian ones that try to point to prophecies for Jesus, while you get the exact opposite tendency for Jewish translations. There are little things like the tenses
of the verbs are either future for Christian translations, or past for Jewish ones.

For example.. if you read a Jewish translation for Isaiah 7:14. .. such as the JPS version or Judaica Press Tanach , you will see that Almah is rightfully translated as 'young woman'.

In Christian versions, it is translated as 'Virgin'.. which is wrong, since the word for Virgin is Bethulah.
Differences in translations does not prove political foul play. And I think you are referring to the Septuagint (not an English translation) with the whole virgin argument.

I'm asking for evidence such as that outlined in the OP in regards to the NIV, NASB, or ESV.

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Re: King James Bible

Post #22

Post by Goat »

cholland wrote:
goat wrote:The mere fact that if you read any of them, you get a different slant on things depending on the religion.

If you compare Christian translations with Jewish ones, there is a slant to the Christian ones that try to point to prophecies for Jesus, while you get the exact opposite tendency for Jewish translations. There are little things like the tenses
of the verbs are either future for Christian translations, or past for Jewish ones.

For example.. if you read a Jewish translation for Isaiah 7:14. .. such as the JPS version or Judaica Press Tanach , you will see that Almah is rightfully translated as 'young woman'.

In Christian versions, it is translated as 'Virgin'.. which is wrong, since the word for Virgin is Bethulah.
Differences in translations does not prove political foul play. And I think you are referring to the Septuagint (not an English translation) with the whole virgin argument.

I'm asking for evidence such as that outlined in the OP in regards to the NIV, NASB, or ESV.
Parthenos does not always mean virgin. so the use of the term 'VIRGIN' by the NIV, NASB, or the ESV for Isaiah 7:14 , since the original hebrew 'ALMAH" means
young maiden is political.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Re: King James Bible

Post #23

Post by cholland »

goat wrote:Parthenos does not always mean virgin. so the use of the term 'VIRGIN' by the NIV, NASB, or the ESV for Isaiah 7:14 , since the original hebrew 'ALMAH" means
young maiden is political.
How so?

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Post #24

Post by Student »

New editions of the Bible are all produced with specific markets in mind. So while the translators / editors may not be Politically motivated they will not be unaware of the theological politics of their target markets. Consequently the translators / editors of a Bible intended say for a conservative-evangelical market might state that
From the beginning of the project, the Committee on Bible Translation held to certain goals for the New International Version: that it would be an accurate translation and one that would have clarity and literary quality and so prove suitable for public and private reading, teaching, preaching, memorizing and liturgical use. The Committee also sought to preserve some measure of continuity with the long tradition of translating the Scriptures into English.

In working toward these goals, the translators were united in their commitment to the authority and infallibility of the Bible as God's Word in written form. They believe that it contains the divine answer to the deepest needs of humanity, that it sheds unique light on our path in a dark world, and that it sets forth the way to our eternal well-being....

...We offer this version of the Bible to him in whose name and for whose glory it has been made. We pray that it will lead many into a better understanding of the Holy Scriptures and a fuller knowledge of Jesus Christ the incarnate Word, of whom the Scriptures so faithfully testify.
Clearly this hardly passes as an agenda for a totally objective and dispassionate approach to translation.

The impact of their approach can be seen in the ‘rationale’ for their translation of Isaiah 7:14
When the Jews translated their Hebrew Bible into Greek (the LXX) c.200 B.C., they used the Greek parthenos (“virgin�) for Hebrew alma. Parthenos is also the word used when Matthew quoted Isaih 7:14 and applied it to Jesus in connection with His virgin birth.
So because Matthew used it in connection with Jesus’ virgin birth, Isaiah must also have meant ‘virgin’.

In making this statement, the NIV translators either chose to ignore, or were ignorant of the fact, that in Attic [Classical Greek] parthenos refers simply to a “young unmarried person� of either gender.

According to LSJ [Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek] the primary meaning of hê parthenos [noun, feminine] is a maiden or young girl. [e.g. Iliad, book 22 line 127] i.e. a young unmarried female. The reference to the marital status is apparent as it could also be applied to unmarried women who were not virgins [Iliad volume 2 line 514, also Pindar’s Odes].
In the masculine it could also refer to an unmarried man ho parthenos [noun masculine]
To explicitly make reference to a female virgin it had to be used in conjunction with gunê e.g. hê parthenos gunê ~ the girl woman.

Therefore, the meaning of the word parthenos at the time the Tanakh was translated into Greek was a young unmarried girl. However, through the process of semantic shift, the meaning of the word subsequently changed so that in the first century CE it was synonymous with ‘virgin’. Consequently, when the author of Matthew read Isaiah [in Greek] he found a verse that neatly matched his requirements for a prophesy of a virgin birth.

That the translators of the NIV chose to ignore the provenance of parthenos leads to the inevitable conclusion that the only reason for retaining the translation ‘virgin’ in Isaiah 7:14 is political (conservative-evangelical theology) rather than accuracy of translation.

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Re: King James Bible

Post #25

Post by Heterodoxus »

McCulloch wrote:... what possible reason could there be to claim that any of these editions are the most accurate translation of the Bible into English?
None, unless it somehow gratifies this "seer/prophet/messenger" (according to his Profile) to thump people over the head with his preferred Bible version in a penial complex* manner.

He thought we here are all Christians? Man, did he get a wrong number! :D
===================

* legal/psychiatric term.
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Re: King James Bible

Post #26

Post by myth-one.com »

Refering to the Hebrew word [i]nephesh[/i], http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh wrote:The concept of an immaterial soul separate from and surviving the body is common today but was not found in ancient Hebrew beliefs. The word never means an immortal soul or an incorporeal part of the human being that can survive death of the body as the spirit of dead.
Bibles which translated the word "nephesh" into the English word "soul" condemned Christianity to failure by falsely assigning immortality to mankind. Once man fell for the myth of his immortality in the first few pages of Genesis, the remaining of the Bible became sealed from his understanding.

From that point forward, when man is said to die in the Bible -- it cannot actually mean die. It has to be "interpretated" to mean something other that death. Likewise, nonbelievers must spend eternity somewhere -- since they cannot perish as the Bible states. And on and on it goes . . . so that Christianity fails to proclaim the good news to all the world -- exactly as prophesied in the scriptures! To me, this helps prove the scriptures were inspired by God. God predicted Christianity's failure -- and His prediction has proven to be correct. Incredible!
McCulloch wrote:Question for debate: what possible reason could there be to claim that any of these editions are the most accurate translation of the Bible into English?
For the reason given above, the English editions of the Bible which clearly define mankind as mortal beings are the most accurate. Immortality is the reward of the saved -- not a birthright. Those not rewarded perish.

From my admittedly humble calculations, about 30% of English Bibles assign immortal connotations to man using the word soul. The most widely used example being the King James Bible. The other 70% correctly describe the creation of man as a mortal being, using words such as living being, person, or creature.

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Re: King James Bible

Post #27

Post by Heterodoxus »

myth-one.com wrote:From my admittedly humble calculations, about 30% of English Bibles assign immortal connotations to man using the word soul. The most widely used example being the King James Bible. The other 70% correctly describe the creation of man as a mortal being, using words such as living being, person, or creature.
Argument from ignorance of the Greek term/word πνεῦμα (pneuma)? Jesus is attributed with having personally used this term/word in several Gospel verses.

As I've expressed elsewhere, how one defines the words for soul and spirit seen in the Gospels--or any biblical word--influences their thinking, especially on the issue of spiritual immortality.
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