In the Bible, did Jesus claim to be God?

GentleDove · Post by **GentleDove** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:41 pm

In Mere Christianity, C. S. Lewis wrote this about Jesus (emphasis mine):

"I am trying to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I am ready to accept Jesus as the great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a boiled egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Some debaters on the site have written that Jesus did not claim to be God and/or Biblical authors did not claim that Jesus was God.

Yet, it is an orthodox Christian doctrine, claimed to be Biblically-based, that Jesus was man and God in one person.

Questions for debate:

In the Bible, did Jesus claim to be God?
Did the Biblical authors claim that Jesus was God?

InTheFlesh · Post by **InTheFlesh** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:47 pm

Bernee51,

I know you don't believe the bible,
but since this is the theology/doctrine forum
you need to support your viewpoint with doctrine/scripture.
I am confident you will not be able to do that
because you are not rooted in truth on this subject.

Go Yankees!

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:10 pm

InTheFlesh wrote:Bernee51,

I know you don't believe the bible,
but since this is the theology/doctrine forum
you need to support your viewpoint with doctrine/scripture.
I am confident you will not be able to do that
because you are not rooted in truth on this subject.

Go Yankees!

Hide in here if you like....

There remains no reference to Jesus in the OT other than hermeneutics. Any reference to the OT in the NT which is meant to infer Jesus is suspect.

As to 'rooted in truth'...

Truth is a pathless land...

Pastor4Jesus · Post by **Pastor4Jesus** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:07 am

bernee51 wrote:
InTheFlesh wrote:Bernee51,

I know you don't believe the bible,
but since this is the theology/doctrine forum
you need to support your viewpoint with doctrine/scripture.
I am confident you will not be able to do that
because you are not rooted in truth on this subject.

Go Yankees!
Hide in here if you like....

There remains no reference to Jesus in the OT other than hermeneutics. Any reference to the OT in the NT which is meant to infer Jesus is suspect.

Hmmm' Hermeneutics are a valid way of extracting information from source material. I wonder why you discount a known discipline that is taught in every college in the USA. You saying that ; "There remains no reference to Jesus in the OT other than hermeneutics" is simply an attempt at discrediting this important tool of discovery (and Jesus and the OT).

As to 'rooted in truth'...Truth is a pathless land...

? There is no such thing as truth in science, only in God is there truth. I may go so far as to say if science could know everything there is to know about the universe, that would be truth as well.

p4jc

InTheFlesh · Post by **InTheFlesh** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:01 pm

Hide in here if you like....

No need to hide.
But the "prove God exists"
comments get old after a while.

There remains no reference to Jesus in the OT other than hermeneutics. Any reference to the OT in the NT which is meant to infer Jesus is suspect.

It's not about the New Testament
trying to make Jesus fit.
It's about the Old Testament
testifying of Jesus.

As to 'rooted in truth'...

Truth is a pathless land...

John.14
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:

All you did
was offer opinion and personal belief.

Scotracer · Post by **Scotracer** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:42 pm

InTheFlesh wrote:
Hide in here if you like....
No need to hide.
But the "prove God exists"
comments get old after a while.
There remains no reference to Jesus in the OT other than hermeneutics. Any reference to the OT in the NT which is meant to infer Jesus is suspect.
It's not about the New Testament
trying to make Jesus fit.
It's about the Old Testament
testifying of Jesus.
As to 'rooted in truth'...

Truth is a pathless land...
John.14
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:

All you did
was offer opinion and personal belief.

Yet why is it that only Christian "interpretation" of the Old Testament seems to indicate reference to Jesus. Why do those who actually have the scriptures as their holy text, the Jews, not see the relevance and interpret the passages the same way?

As bernee said, it appears to just be a lot of ad hoc re-writing of what the OT actually said and in place, what it "meant" to say.

InTheFlesh · Post by **InTheFlesh** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:16 pm

Yet why is it that only Christian "interpretation" of the Old Testament seems to indicate reference to Jesus. Why do those who actually have the scriptures as their holy text, the Jews, not see the relevance and interpret the passages the same way?

The Jews.
The biblical Jews anyway.
Who are they waiting for?
What do they know
about their Messiah
besides what's written in the Old Testament?

Just because most Jews do not believe in Jesus
does not mean the Old Testament is not about him.

Scotracer · Post by **Scotracer** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:49 am

InTheFlesh wrote:
Yet why is it that only Christian "interpretation" of the Old Testament seems to indicate reference to Jesus. Why do those who actually have the scriptures as their holy text, the Jews, not see the relevance and interpret the passages the same way?
The Jews.
The biblical Jews anyway.
Who are they waiting for?
What do they know
about their Messiah
besides what's written in the Old Testament?

Just because most Jews do not believe in Jesus
does not mean the Old Testament is not about him.

I just find it odd how Jewish scholars, those who know the OT the best of anyone, don't see it being a prediction of Jesus. Can you account for this?

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:47 pm

Pastor4Jesus wrote:
bernee51 wrote:
InTheFlesh wrote:Bernee51,

I know you don't believe the bible,
but since this is the theology/doctrine forum
you need to support your viewpoint with doctrine/scripture.
I am confident you will not be able to do that
because you are not rooted in truth on this subject.

Go Yankees!
Hide in here if you like....

There remains no reference to Jesus in the OT other than hermeneutics. Any reference to the OT in the NT which is meant to infer Jesus is suspect.
Hmmm' Hermeneutics are a valid way of extracting information from source material. I wonder why you discount a known discipline that is taught in every college in the USA.

Red herring or straw man?

Indeed - and each 'interpretation' is going to be in the eye of the beholder - affected by whatever historical, societal or other influence that is being brought to bear.

I am not discounting the act of hermeneution - I am discounting the output on the part of those who retrofit- the writers or NT or those you intepret them - to claim that Jesus is mentioned or referred to in the OT.

Pastor4Jesus wrote:
As to 'rooted in truth'...Truth is a pathless land...
There is no such thing as truth in science, only in God is there truth.

Your unsubstaniated claim is noted.

InTheFlesh · Post by **InTheFlesh** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:51 pm

Scotracer wrote:
InTheFlesh wrote:
Yet why is it that only Christian "interpretation" of the Old Testament seems to indicate reference to Jesus. Why do those who actually have the scriptures as their holy text, the Jews, not see the relevance and interpret the passages the same way?
The Jews.
The biblical Jews anyway.
Who are they waiting for?
What do they know
about their Messiah
besides what's written in the Old Testament?

Just because most Jews do not believe in Jesus
does not mean the Old Testament is not about him.
I just find it odd how Jewish scholars, those who know the OT the best of anyone, don't see it being a prediction of Jesus. Can you account for this?

Just because most Jews do not believe in Jesus
does not mean the Old Testament is not about him

John.1
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Scotracer · Post by **Scotracer** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:07 pm

InTheFlesh wrote:
Scotracer wrote:
InTheFlesh wrote:
Yet why is it that only Christian "interpretation" of the Old Testament seems to indicate reference to Jesus. Why do those who actually have the scriptures as their holy text, the Jews, not see the relevance and interpret the passages the same way?
The Jews.
The biblical Jews anyway.
Who are they waiting for?
What do they know
about their Messiah
besides what's written in the Old Testament?

Just because most Jews do not believe in Jesus
does not mean the Old Testament is not about him.
I just find it odd how Jewish scholars, those who know the OT the best of anyone, don't see it being a prediction of Jesus. Can you account for this?

Just because most Jews do not believe in Jesus
does not mean the Old Testament is not about him
John.1
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I fail to see the relevance of this excerpt as it is a NT passage. Care to enlighten how it relates to the Old Testament? I'd stand that it's just another re-interpretation of the OT to fit this Jesus character in.