Original Sin

[JBlack]

I was talking to one of my cousins who is a Christian. We started talking about children and babies that die. My cousin, as well as many other Christians I know, believe that babies and kids will go to heaven automatically.

But they also believe in Original sin. They believe that we're all born hell-bound sinners, and must be saved. If you don't die an accepter of Jesus Christ, then you go to hell.

I point out to my cousin that this is kind of contradictory. How can a baby go to heaven if that baby is already a sinner, being that he was born a sinner. We're all born sinners and that's why we all need Jesus Christ....right?

Apparently I was wrong (as usual ). It's different for children. So then at what age does Original Sin kick in? He tells me after 12, is when you need Jesus. He claims this to be biblically supported. Disappointingly (but not surprisingly), he wasn't able to tell me where in the bible this was.

And so my question:

1. Do babies and children go to heaven automatically?
2. Is there really a such thing as Original Sin?
3. Is there anything in the bible about 12 being the "cut off " age?

[AIEC]

I was talking to one of my cousins who is a Christian. We started talking about children and babies that die. My cousin, as well as many other Christians I know, believe that babies and kids will go to heaven automatically.

But they also believe in Original sin. They believe that we're all born hell-bound sinners, and must be saved. If you don't die an accepter of Jesus Christ, then you go to hell.

I point out to my cousin that this is kind of contradictory. How can a baby go to heaven if that baby is already a sinner, being that he was born a sinner. We're all born sinners and that's why we all need Jesus Christ....right?

Apparently I was wrong (as usual ). It's different for children. So then at what age does Original Sin kick in? He tells me after 12, is when you need Jesus. He claims this to be biblically supported. Disappointingly (but not surprisingly), he wasn't able to tell me where in the bible this was.

And so my question:

1. Do babies and children go to heaven automatically?
2. Is there really a such thing as Original Sin?
3. Is there anything in the bible about 12 being the "cut off " age?

Hey there. Well you cousin is right, at least partly. The bible does teach original sin. Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to CONDEMNATION; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The problem, as I see it, lies in the "acceptance" of Jesus to become saved. This doctrine has been widely held through out most churches as the means to salvation, however when this doctrine did not fit well with children, the "age of accountability" was born, excluding them from this "acceptance". Well what if someone is an adult but mentally retarded? Well, according to the "age of accountability" doctrine they are covered under the "age of accountability" umbrella, so you see, it is no longer an age (12) but a condition. Isn't it odd that your cousin could not find the scripture for his belief? It is because the Bible does not teach that doctrine nor does it teach that one has to "accept" Jesus to be saved. There really is no contradiction between infants and salvation when we understand that it is God who saves whom he wills. This is taught all throughout scripture and yes there are some verses that seem to say we can choose Him to be saved but I am a firm believer in comparing everything the bible has to say on a particular subject before making a definite statement on it. We cannot quote one verse and assume that overrides every other part of scripture that deals with that subject. Babies need salvation as much as grownups, this is why Jesus said not to forbid them from coming to him, they need to hear the gospel just as much as anyone else, remember faith comes by hearing the word of God, not understanding it.

To answer your questions specifically:
1) No all babies do not go to heaven automatically, remember Jesus said, JOHN 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be BORN AGAIN.

Notice Jesus clearly making a distinction between those born of the flesh, babies, and those born of the spirit.

2) Yes, original sin is this: Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to CONDEMNATION; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All men have been condemned because of what Adam did, that is why the Bible says there is no one righteous, no not one. We must be born again to be considered righteous in Gods eyes.

3) The bible speaks of many ages for many things, and like I said, any age may be taken to mean anything anyone wants it to mean, but it has to hold up to the scrutiny of every bible passage on the subject, else one cannot have a complete understanding on the subject.
Hope this helps, I would be glad to hear your response once you have talked it over with others, and if I have made a mistake in any part I would be more that glad to receive correction on it. God Bless you.

[myth-one.com]

1. Do babies and children go to heaven automatically?

The belief is they go to heaven because they died sinless. But this path to heaven is now closed! The two testaments of the Bible represent wills or covenants between God and man. Under the first testament, the only path to eternal life was to never sin, because the wages of sin is death. However, there was a fault in the first testament in that all mankind sinned! Therefore, no one could gain eternal life under that first testament. Since the first covenant contained faults, God created a second, or New Testament:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The New Testament requirement for gaining eternal life ia a belief in Jesus Christ and one's Savior from sin. Upon creating a New Testament, the first covenant became the Old Testament:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The New Testament covenant became effective and the Old Testament covenant vanished away when Jesus Christ, the testator, died on the cross:

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Once the New Testament became active, the previous testament became obsolete. No one can now gain eternal life by remaining sinless as required under the Old Testament. This includes infants and children! The only path to salvation presently is through a belief in Jesus Christ under terms of the New Testament covenant, and infants do not believe in Jesus Christ!

2. Is there really a such thing as Original Sin?

It's a moot point now:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

After Jesus died for us, we fell under the grace of Jesus Christ for our salvation, not our works to fulfill the law. So sin, whether none or many, does not control our salvation!

3. Is there anything in the bible about 12 being the "cut off " age?

Here is one earthly example: When the children of Israel rebelled against the commandments of God after departing Egypt, God let them wander in the wilderness so that the sinful adults would die off and not see the Promised Land. However, those who were children and had no knowledge of good and evil were allowed to take possession of the Promised Land:

Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

There is further indication that these "children" were everyone under the age of twenty:

For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the lord...

These "men of war" are defined in the book of Numbers:

From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies.

This probably is the derivation of our old legal age limit of 21. But 20 was used to as a general age to apply to a large group. The actual age varies from child to child. It is the age at which that child understands God's laws and knows that violating them is a sin. Sin is transgressing God's laws. But to be counted or imputed as a sin, one must understand that breaking that law is a sin:

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

But once again, it is now a moot point.

[JBlack]

The problem, as I see it, lies in the "acceptance" of Jesus to become saved. This doctrine has been widely held through out most churches as the means to salvation, however when this doctrine did not fit well with children, the "age of accountability" was born, excluding them from this "acceptance". Well what if someone is an adult but mentally retarded? Well, according to the "age of accountability" doctrine they are covered under the "age of accountability" umbrella, so you see, it is no longer an age (12) but a condition. Isn't it odd that your cousin could not find the scripture for his belief? It is because the Bible does not teach that doctrine nor does it teach that one has to "accept" Jesus to be saved.

No all babies do not go to heaven automatically, remember Jesus said, JOHN 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be BORN AGAIN.

Ok, so you're saying that accepting Jesus isn't the way to heaven. To go to heaven, you must be "born again". Well explain to me exactly what being born again is and what the difference is between that and accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. How exactly are you born of the Spirit? and is this something a baby is capable of doing?

Babies need salvation as much as grownups, this is why Jesus said not to forbid them from coming to him, they need to hear the gospel just as much as anyone else

I would agree that based on the Bible, this is correct. But I have a problem with this. A baby can't choose whether to hear the gospel or not. If a baby's parents aren't Christian, then it's very likely that the baby can die and never hear a word of it. So this baby doesn't get to go to heaven. I thinks this contradicts the idea of God being just.

[JBlack]

1. Do babies and children go to heaven automatically?

The belief is they go to heaven because they died sinless. But this path to heaven is now closed! The two testaments of the Bible represent wills or covenants between God and man. Under the first testament, the only path to eternal life was to never sin, because the wages of sin is death. However, there was a fault in the first testament in that all mankind sinned! Therefore, no one could gain eternal life under that first testament. Since the first covenant contained faults, God created a second, or New Testament:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The New Testament requirement for gaining eternal life ia a belief in Jesus Christ and one's Savior from sin. Upon creating a New Testament, the first covenant became the Old Testament:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The New Testament covenant became effective and the Old Testament covenant vanished away when Jesus Christ, the testator, died on the cross:

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Once the New Testament became active, the previous testament became obsolete. No one can now gain eternal life by remaining sinless as required under the Old Testament. This includes infants and children! The only path to salvation presently is through a belief in Jesus Christ under terms of the New Testament covenant, and infants do not believe in Jesus Christ!

So no baby can go to heaven. So all these babies that are dying in the world... acording to the Bible, they're all going to hell?
What do you think about what AIEC said though... can a baby go to heaven if he/she is "born again"? (Is that even possible?)

[myth-one.com]

So no baby can go to heaven. So all these babies that are dying in the world... according to the Bible, they're all going to hell?

They're dead, and will know or be aware of nothing until they are resurrected as humans at the second resurrection. They will grow to maturity, be taught the true good news of the gospels, and accept or reject Jesus as their Savior at that time.

What do you think about what AIEC said though... can a baby go to heaven if he/she is "born again"? (Is that even possible?)

The requirements are identical for every human, including babies. One must be born of water as a human, then born again as a spirit. This occurs at or after the Second Coming of Christ. The Kingdom of God consists only of spiritual beings. No flesh and blood human can enter the Kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;...

Rejoice and have a great day! The true good news of the gospel is infinitely better than you have ever been told!

[AIEC]

Ok, so you're saying that accepting Jesus isn't the way to heaven. To go to heaven, you must be "born again". Well explain to me exactly what being born again is and what the difference is between that and accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. How exactly are you born of the Spirit? and is this something a baby is capable of doing?

This is the same question Nicodemus asked Jesus, listen to his reply:
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be BORN AGAIN.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Here Jesus is explaining that just being born does not save you, it actually condemns you, as we went over earlier, that is why you must be born again. But this time you must be born of water which is representing the gospel. And of the spirit. Remember that being born again is not a physical act, it is a spiritual act. Every person born is born spiritually dead, when you are born again you are given a new spirit so now you are born by the gospel (water) and the spirit (new spirit).
EZEKIEL 11
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
This is how salvation is accomplished by God.

Babies need salvation as much as grownups, this is why Jesus said not to forbid them from coming to him, they need to hear the gospel just as much as anyone else

I would agree that based on the Bible, this is correct. But I have a problem with this. A baby can't choose whether to hear the gospel or not. If a baby's parents aren't Christian, then it's very likely that the baby can die and never hear a word of it. So this baby doesn't get to go to heaven. I thinks this contradicts the idea of God being just.[/quote]

While that may be true, we can firmly believe that whosoever God plans to save will be saved. Every one who is to be born again are given to Christ by the Father and they will be saved.
JOHN 6
37 ALL that the father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[SpiritQuickens]

So no baby can go to heaven. So all these babies that are dying in the world... according to the Bible, they're all going to hell?

They're dead, and will know or be aware of nothing until they are resurrected as humans at the second resurrection. They will grow to maturity, be taught the true good news of the gospels, and accept or reject Jesus as their Savior at that time.

What do you think about what AIEC said though... can a baby go to heaven if he/she is "born again"? (Is that even possible?)

The requirements are identical for every human, including babies. One must be born of water as a human, then born again as a spirit. This occurs at or after the Second Coming of Christ. The Kingdom of God consists only of spiritual beings. No flesh and blood human can enter the Kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;...

Rejoice and have a great day! The true good news of the gospel is infinitely better than you have ever been told!

Where does it say in the Bible that the dead who have never heard of the Gospel will be raised to hear it?

[AIEC]

Where does it say in the Bible that the dead who have never heard of the Gospel will be raised to hear it?

The gospel is the word of God, which has been with mankind from the beginning.
JOHN 1
1 In the beginning WAS THE WORD, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Where does it say that people from old will get a second chance to hear the gospel to accept it or not?

[JBlack]

So no baby can go to heaven. So all these babies that are dying in the world... according to the Bible, they're all going to hell?

They're dead, and will know or be aware of nothing until they are resurrected as humans at the second resurrection. They will grow to maturity, be taught the true good news of the gospels, and accept or reject Jesus as their Savior at that time.

Interesting... this is one I've never heard before. So babies will be given a second life, grow up, then get to choose. Can you give me a biblical reference for this?

Remember that being born again is not a physical act, it is a spiritual act. Every person born is born spiritually dead, when you are born again you are given a new spirit so now you are born by the gospel (water) and the spirit (new spirit).

Ok, but my question is, how exactly can one be born again? In other words, how does one go about this process? What must one do in order for God to give them a new spirit? Believe in Jesus? Repent? Change your life? What are the requirements? Is it possible for a baby to meet these requirements? Are the requirements different for babies? How do you know when you've received your new spirit?

Every one who is to be born again are given to Christ by the Father and they will be saved.

So some people just aren't meant to be saved? What about all the dead babies and children that haven't been given to Christ by the Father? When were they ever given a choice or opportunity?