calvinism

[justifyothers]

As some of you may know, I left my last church over three years ago because I could not accept the doctrine of calvinism.

I still have some friends from that church, and usually we do not discuss doctrine, but one thing lead to another and there we were in that same ol argument. However- my friend's husband threw a new one at me. He made this excuse for the ugly god of calvinism:

He said that everything is 'predetermined' until that moment of accepting/rejecting God. At that time, freewill kicks in and the choice is ours, even though god knows how we will choose. I have never heard such nonsense before and I was wondering if anyone else has heard this theory, or if he just made it up on the spot.

[McCulloch]

It sounds like your acquaintance holds to some form of Compatibilism and is making a muddle of trying to explain it.

[justifyothers]

It sounds like your acquaintance holds to some form of Compatibilism and is making a muddle of trying to explain it.

Thank you for this info. I read the definition concerning theology, and I think I understand it. But, if you believe in compatabalism, you have chosen something other than calvinism, as the two are not the same, fundamentally, right?

[McCulloch]

It sounds like your acquaintance holds to some form of Compatibilism and is making a muddle of trying to explain it.

Thank you for this info. I read the definition concerning theology, and I think I understand it. But, if you believe in compatabalism, you have chosen something other than calvinism, as the two are not the same, fundamentally, right?

Right. But your acquaintance has already left Calvinism. There is no room for free-will within Calvinism. Central to Calvinism is the doctrine that humans since the fall are utterly and completely sinful. Without external divine assistance, we cannot even choose good over evil, according to them. If he claims that the choice is really ours, then he is no longer a Calvinist, although he may not realize it yet. My parents in-law belong to a Calvinist Presbyterian Church. They had agreed to a statement when becoming members asserting that they believed in the tenets of Calvinism. Yet, they do not really believe it.

[justifyothers]

It sounds like your acquaintance holds to some form of Compatibilism and is making a muddle of trying to explain it.

Thank you for this info. I read the definition concerning theology, and I think I understand it. But, if you believe in compatabalism, you have chosen something other than calvinism, as the two are not the same, fundamentally, right?

Right. But your acquaintance has already left Calvinism. There is no room for free-will within Calvinism. Central to Calvinism is the doctrine that humans since the fall are utterly and completely sinful. Without external divine assistance, we cannot even choose good over evil, according to them. If he claims that the choice is really ours, then he is no longer a Calvinist, although he may not realize it yet. My parents in-law belong to a Calvinist Presbyterian Church. They had agreed to a statement when becoming members asserting that they believed in the tenets of Calvinism. Yet, they do not really believe it.

That's what I thought....thank you. I assume it is a hard nut to swallow, even if you say you believe it

[SpiritQuickens]

As some of you may know, I left my last church over three years ago because I could not accept the doctrine of calvinism.

I still have some friends from that church, and usually we do not discuss doctrine, but one thing lead to another and there we were in that same ol argument. However- my friend's husband threw a new one at me. He made this excuse for the ugly god of calvinism:

He said that everything is 'predetermined' until that moment of accepting/rejecting God. At that time, freewill kicks in and the choice is ours, even though god knows how we will choose. I have never heard such nonsense before and I was wondering if anyone else has heard this theory, or if he just made it up on the spot.

It's not Biblical. I just posted a brief (compared to the attention the subject deserves and requires) account of why "Calvinism" is Biblical:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=11808

[Skyler]

As some of you may know, I left my last church over three years ago because I could not accept the doctrine of calvinism.

I still have some friends from that church, and usually we do not discuss doctrine, but one thing lead to another and there we were in that same ol argument. However- my friend's husband threw a new one at me. He made this excuse for the ugly god of calvinism:

He said that everything is 'predetermined' until that moment of accepting/rejecting God. At that time, freewill kicks in and the choice is ours, even though god knows how we will choose. I have never heard such nonsense before and I was wondering if anyone else has heard this theory, or if he just made it up on the spot.

First of all I suggest you be careful about throwing around terms like "ugly god of Calvinism". What if for some reason you should turn out to be wrong?

Secondly, I have heard that explanation, I actually tried it when I was moving towards Calvinism. It didn't work.

For one thing, "free will" is a vague buzzword that doesn't really seem to mean anything. The strict definition is "making choices without taking into account external influences"--something nobody, I hope, does. Everyone takes external factors into account--whether it's looking both ways before crossing the street or planning a stock investment. But if we recognize that we always take external factors into account when making decisions, is that free will or are we being influenced by our surroundings? Again, are our decisions influenced by our nature? Some people seem more prone to make rash decisions than others. It would certainly seem to be the case--and the Bible backs this up. "Out of the heart the mouth speaketh".

So you'd have to define what you mean by "free will", in a Biblical sense of the term.

Let me point out just for clarity that Calvinists do believe in man's will. They just believe it is influenced by man's nature to the point where those who are not in the Spirit cannot please God.

Secondly, yes, God does use man's will to accomplish His ends. Look at the book of Isaiah--the nations were perfectly free to conquer or not conquer, but they conquered according to God's plan to achieve His ends. They, of course, didn't realize it; they were following their own inclinations--their nature, if you will--but in some fashion it was inevitable that it would happen ever since God created the world.

[McCulloch]

First of all I suggest you be careful about throwing around terms like "ugly god of Calvinism".

Yes, it does border on incivility. Yet the God portrayed by Calvinism is difficult to like. He creates us all. None of us are capable of choosing good over evil, salvation over condemnation so he must intervene. But he intervenes only with a select group of us, chosen for his own apparently arbitrary reasons, for no one is less sinful or less soiled than any other. Those he chooses get eternal rewards, those he ignores get eternal torment. It does seem to me that the term the ugly god of Calvinism is warranted.

What if for some reason you should turn out to be wrong?

Then either you are saved or condemned, entirely by God's will and choice and it matters not what you do or not do, what you believe or not believe.

For one thing, "free will" is a vague buzzword that doesn't really seem to mean anything. The strict definition is "making choices without taking into account external influences"--something nobody, I hope, does. Everyone takes external factors into account--whether it's looking both ways before crossing the street or planning a stock investment. But if we recognize that we always take external factors into account when making decisions, is that free will or are we being influenced by our surroundings?

But free will implies that there is something beyond the external influences, that is involved in decision making.

Again, are our decisions influenced by our nature?

Of course they are. But are our natures a result of external influences, environment, genes and experiences, or is there something else too. Free will implies that there is something independent of everything else in our own nature.

Some people seem more prone to make rash decisions than others.

Do they do so because of a hormonal imbalance, a genetic predisposition, environmental conditioning or is there a completely independent spirit helping to call the shots?

So you'd have to define what you mean by "free will", in a Biblical sense of the term.

That would be difficult, since the term or the idea cannot be found in Christian scriptures.

Let me point out just for clarity that Calvinists do believe in man's will. They just believe it is influenced by man's nature to the point where those who are not in the Spirit cannot please God.

They believe, do they not, that human nature is utterly and completely evil? Calvinists teach that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.

[Skyler]

First of all I suggest you be careful about throwing around terms like "ugly god of Calvinism".

Yes, it does border on incivility. Yet the God portrayed by Calvinism is difficult to like. He creates us all. None of us are capable of choosing good over evil, salvation over condemnation so he must intervene. But he intervenes only with a select group of us, chosen for his own apparently arbitrary reasons, for no one is less sinful or less soiled than any other. Those he chooses get eternal rewards, those he ignores get eternal torment. It does seem to me that the term the ugly god of Calvinism is warranted.

What if for some reason you should turn out to be wrong?

Then either you are saved or condemned, entirely by God's will and choice and it matters not what you do or not do, what you believe or not believe.

I'm curious to know if you consider caricature a valid method of argumentation. Do you really think that's Calvinism?

For one thing, "free will" is a vague buzzword that doesn't really seem to mean anything. The strict definition is "making choices without taking into account external influences"--something nobody, I hope, does. Everyone takes external factors into account--whether it's looking both ways before crossing the street or planning a stock investment. But if we recognize that we always take external factors into account when making decisions, is that free will or are we being influenced by our surroundings?

But free will implies that there is something beyond the external influences, that is involved in decision making.

What would that nebulous "something" be?

Again, are our decisions influenced by our nature?

Of course they are. But are our natures a result of external influences, environment, genes and experiences, or is there something else too. Free will implies that there is something independent of everything else in our own nature.

I think our nature goes beyond just a combination of external influences, environment, genes, and experience, yes. But I don't see how free will fits in with that.

Some people seem more prone to make rash decisions than others.

Do they do so because of a hormonal imbalance, a genetic predisposition, environmental conditioning or is there a completely independent spirit helping to call the shots?

There is no completely independent spirit, at least not from my perspective, and that's what I've been arguing. It may be from any of those other factors you list, or a combination.

So you'd have to define what you mean by "free will", in a Biblical sense of the term.

That would be difficult, since the term or the idea cannot be found in Christian scriptures.

The idea, no, I agree. But I did find the word in my concordance.

Let me point out just for clarity that Calvinists do believe in man's will. They just believe it is influenced by man's nature to the point where those who are not in the Spirit cannot please God.

They believe, do they not, that human nature is utterly and completely evil? Calvinists teach that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.

That's what I said. But there's a difference between a constitutional inability and a physical inability--I may be unable to stomach the thought of eating a worm to the point that I would rather die first. That doesn't mean I'm physically unable; it means I'm constitutionally or morally unable.

Just for the record, I'm not. I have eaten worms.

[McCulloch]

Then either you are saved or condemned, entirely by God's will and choice and it matters not what you do or not do, what you believe or not believe.

I'm curious to know if you consider caricature a valid method of argumentation. Do you really think that's Calvinism?

Essentially, yes. According to Calvinism, if you believe it is by God's grace and you cannot help but to believe. If you do not believe, you cannot get to the point of belief by your own nature or effort.

But free will implies that there is something beyond the external influences, that is involved in decision making.

What would that nebulous "something" be?

I believe that those who believe in free will call it spirit or soul.

Again, are our decisions influenced by our nature?

Of course they are. But are our natures a result of external influences, environment, genes and experiences, or is there something else too. Free will implies that there is something independent of everything else in our own nature.

I think our nature goes beyond just a combination of external influences, environment, genes, and experience, yes. But I don't see how free will fits in with that.

If our nature is merely a combination of external influences, environment, genes, experience and all that, then it is entirely determined, no free-will. If however, you posit that we have free will, you must also believe in some non-external, non-determined source for that free will.

Some people seem more prone to make rash decisions than others.

Do they do so because of a hormonal imbalance, a genetic predisposition, environmental conditioning or is there a completely independent spirit helping to call the shots?

There is no completely independent spirit, at least not from my perspective, and that's what I've been arguing. It may be from any of those other factors you list, or a combination.

We agree. But those who believe in free will claim that our natures cannot be merely a combination of those factors but something beyond.

So you'd have to define what you mean by "free will", in a Biblical sense of the term.

That would be difficult, since the term or the idea cannot be found in Christian scriptures.

The idea, no, I agree. But I did find the word in my concordance.

I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart, whom I wished to keep with me, so that on your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel; but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

Nice catch!

Let me point out just for clarity that Calvinists do believe in man's will. They just believe it is influenced by man's nature to the point where those who are not in the Spirit cannot please God.

They believe, do they not, that human nature is utterly and completely evil? Calvinists teach that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.

That's what I said. But there's a difference between a constitutional inability and a physical inability--I may be unable to stomach the thought of eating a worm to the point that I would rather die first. That doesn't mean I'm physically unable; it means I'm constitutionally or morally unable.

OK, maybe I'm missing the point. According to Calvinism, all humans are by nature enslaved to sin, incapable of choosing good without direct intervention of the irresistible will of God.

Just for the record, I'm not. I have eaten worms.

So did Martin Luther apparently.