+++ THE COLLECTIVE MESSIAH +++

[Ben Masada]

The text is the whole chapter 53 of Isaiah.

We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then, who did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter
53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah
1:1. "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem. That's the theme of the whole book of
Isaiah: Judah. The House of Jacob, called by the new name Israel, from the stock
of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)

Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. Here we have established a
syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and that Servant is
indetified with Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel, the Jewish
People is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epithet of son of God, there is no paradox;
we can have that from Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1. "Israel is My son; so let
My son go that he may serve Me." Says the Lord.

Last but not least, Jesus was no doubt part of the Messiah but not on an individual
basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially when
in exile, is of a Messianic leader to inspire or lead the Messiah back home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah and for financing the rebuilding of the Temple. And herzl was another for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Ben Masada,

If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and that Servant is indetified with Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel, the Jewish People is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

How does Israel, a sinful nation, heavy with iniquity and forsaking YHVH (verse 1:4), qualify to be a collective messiah bearing the sins of many and interceding for transgressors (verse 53:12)?

Paul

Have you ever thought of death as the universal equalizer? I'll explain. Before we were born, we were sinless. Why? Because we did not exist. When we die, we return to that condition of non-existence. Therefore, sinless.

When Israel was Divinely doomed to redeem Judah, according to Psalm 78:67-69, Israel had become as good as dead. Therefore, sinless. That's why he was made elligible to die for the sins of "Many," the Judahites that is. (Isa. 53:11,12)

[Paul2]

Ben,

Have you ever thought of death as the universal equalizer? I'll explain. Before we were born, we were sinless. Why? Because we did not exist. When we die, we return to that condition of non-existence. Therefore, sinless.

When Israel was Divinely doomed to redeem Judah, according to Psalm 78:67-69, Israel had become as good as dead. Therefore, sinless. That's why he was made elligible to die for the sins of "Many," the Judahites that is. (Isa. 53:11,12)

Only existing flawless animals were to be sacrificed on the 14th day of the month of Abib/Nisan. Not even one nonexistent blemished lamb was ever sacrificed that day. A nonexistent sinless nation cannot be killed for the sins of another.

Paul

[Ben Masada]

Ben,

Have you ever thought of death as the universal equalizer? I'll explain. Before we were born, we were sinless. Why? Because we did not exist. When we die, we return to that condition of non-existence. Therefore, sinless.

When Israel was Divinely doomed to redeem Judah, according to Psalm 78:67-69, Israel had become as good as dead. Therefore, sinless. That's why he was made elligible to die for the sins of "Many," the Judahites that is. (Isa. 53:11,12)

Only existing flawless animals were to be sacrificed on the 14th day of the month of Abib/Nisan. Not even one nonexistent blemished lamb was ever sacrificed that day. A nonexistent sinless nation cannot be killed for the sins of another.

Paul

Paul, you have to go metaphorical with prophetic language. The prophetic language is the same as poetic language. Too metaphorical. The Prophet and the Poet have to work with symbols.

I said that after Israel became doomed to die for the redemption of Judah, he was as good as dead. Therefore, sinless. However, there was no bloodshed. Since there is no sacrifice without bloodshed, the sacrifice had still to be done. And the sacrifice of Israel was permanent exile and mingling with the world pool of Gentiles. That's how Israel, the Ten Tribes, or Messiah ben Joseph, the Suffering Servant was removed from existence. So that Judah, or Messiah ben David, the Triumphant Servant, should remain forever as a Lamp in Jerusalem to the world, according to God's promise to David. That's in I Kings 11:36.

[Paul2]

Ben,

Paul, you have to go metaphorical with prophetic language. The prophetic language is the same as poetic language. Too metaphorical. The Prophet and the Poet have to work with symbols.

I said that after Israel became doomed to die for the redemption of Judah, he was as good as dead. Therefore, sinless. However, there was no bloodshed. Since there is no sacrifice without bloodshed, the sacrifice had still to be done. And the sacrifice of Israel was permanent exile and mingling with the world pool of Gentiles. ...

If Israel were metaphorically dead, they could not have been metaphorically sacrificed for Judah because they were already "dead".

Paul

[Ben Masada]

Ben,

Paul, you have to go metaphorical with prophetic language. The prophetic language is the same as poetic language. Too metaphorical. The Prophet and the Poet have to work with symbols.

I said that after Israel became doomed to die for the redemption of Judah, he was as good as dead. Therefore, sinless. However, there was no bloodshed. Since there is no sacrifice without bloodshed, the sacrifice had still to be done. And the sacrifice of Israel was permanent exile and mingling with the world pool of Gentiles. ...

If Israel were metaphorically dead, they could not have been metaphorically sacrificed for Judah because they were already "dead".

Paul

Everything is possible metaphorically.

[Paul2]

Ben,

Everything is possible metaphorically.

Is every metaphorical assertion of Hitler possible?

If Israel existed, they were alive and sinning.
If Israel were sinners, they could not have been sacrificed.
If Israel were dead, they were sinless like a non-existent spoon is sinless.
If Israel were dead, they could have been sacrificed as successfully as a non-existent spoon can be bent.

Paul

[Ben Masada]

Ben,

Everything is possible metaphorically.

Is every metaphorical assertion of Hitler possible?

If Israel existed, they were alive and sinning.
If Israel were sinners, they could not have been sacrificed.
If Israel were dead, they were sinless like a non-existent spoon is sinless.
If Israel were dead, they could have been sacrificed as successfully as a non-existent spoon can be bent.

Paul

Yes, everything is possible metaphorically.

[arth47]

Last but not least, Jesus was no doubt part of the Messiah but not on an individual
basis. The Messiah is collective.

-Matthew 16:16:"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
- Romans 8:29:"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
-Galatians 4:6:"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
-1 cor 12:12:"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1 cor 12:27:" Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. "

Christ was the Messiah not part of the Messiah.He is the Son of God and in Him all the fullness of God dwells.And as You can see from Gal 4:6 which i quoted above,We become sons because the Son of God lives in us and works in us and that is why Romans 8:9 says:"....Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."Anyone who doesnt have Christ the Son of God in His heart is not Gods son.

The church collectively forms the Body of the Messiah on earth.We are collectively Christ because Christ lives in all of us.

[Ben Masada]

Last but not least, Jesus was no doubt part of the Messiah but not on an individual
basis. The Messiah is collective.

-Matthew 16:16:"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
- Romans 8:29:"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
-Galatians 4:6:"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
-1 cor 12:12:"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1 cor 12:27:" Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. "

Christ was the Messiah not part of the Messiah.He is the Son of God and in Him all the fullness of God dwells.And as You can see from Gal 4:6 which i quoted above,We become sons because the Son of God lives in us and works in us and that is why Romans 8:9 says:"....Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."Anyone who doesnt have Christ the Son of God in His heart is not Gods son.

The church collectively forms the Body of the Messiah on earth.We are collectively Christ because Christ lives in all of us.

This is Greek Mythology preached by the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the gospels 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. In the meantime they had copied from the Christology of Paul which had been fabricated about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. Jesus was Jewish, and there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology
in Judaism.

[arth47]

This is Greek Mythology preached by the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the gospels 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. In the meantime they had copied from the Christology of Paul which had been fabricated about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. Jesus was Jewish, and there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology
in Judaism.[/b]

Hmmm unfortunately You speak as though You were there when they wrote it.You simply choose to "believe" that they fabricated it because it suits Your interests.
You should never twist the scripture to suit "Your own purposes" and "beliefs":The Bible is inerrant and complete.You should never add or subtract from it:Rev 22: 19:"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Finally do not strive with Your maker.Do not tell Him what You feel is right.Instead accept His words as being ideal.Is 45:9:"Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?"