God is Jesus; Jesus is God

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McCulloch
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God is Jesus; Jesus is God

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

Chancellor wrote:I don't know of many Christians who would say that "God is Jesus," unless they're Oneness Pentecostals.
McCulloch wrote:They say Jesus is God. Is that not the same thing? It gets rather confusing to us.
Chancellor wrote:They (Oneness Pentecostals) say both. As one of their hymns says, "It's all in Him." They believe that there is one God and that His name is Jesus.
Questions for debate:
  1. Is there a difference between saying that Jesus is God and God is Jesus?
  2. What do the Oneness Pentecostals teach? Is it significantly different from what most Christians teach? Is it in line or contrary to the Bible?
  3. How many Gods do the Christians really believe in?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #31

Post by Cathar1950 »

scottlittlefield17 wrote:A man did not become God. God became a man. And as for Jonahs comment on the kosher food. It is obvious Jesus was talking figuratively. Paul a gnostic mystic. You have not read Paul's letters much. Paul's letter often were debating Gnosticism.
Some say or believe a man became "the Son of God" by being adopted as David, others believe God became a man. You are just making one of the many claims some taking metaphors literally others figuaritvly when needed. Many scholars have read Paul's letters and some find him Gnostic even when he is arguing against. Paul say he was anything he needed to be to anyone But saying someone hasn't read Paul because they can see Gnostic elements in his "mysticism" is unfounded.
If it is so obvious that the authors portrayed Jesus as speaking figuratively why do so many take his sayings so literal?
There really wasn't much supstance to your posts and being they are nothing more then insinuated and asumed beliefs that are neither explained or argued for, I can only imagine you point.

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Post #32

Post by scottlittlefield17 »

Well if it is all right to just believe what you want then there is nothing I can say. What "evidence" could I give?

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Post #33

Post by InTheFlesh »

Isa.9
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matt.1
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

1Tim.3
[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[27] Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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If Jesus Was God Then Who Was He Praying In Matthew 6 ; 9

Post #34

Post by Kadmon »

InTheFlesh wrote:Isa.9
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matt.1
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

1Tim.3
[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[27] Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


God The Father , Then You Have Humanity As His Children , And The Holy Ghost Are The AngelicBeings , You Are Useing 1John 5 ; 7 As If It Is Authentic When In Fact It Has Been Proven To Be A Distorted Scripture Nor Does It Exist In Any Of The Original Manuscripts I Don't Try To Discredit AnyThing

Or AnyOne I Just State The Facts , And I Am Only Interested In The Facts . To Answer Your Question . When The Bible Was In Its Original Language Of Aramaic ( Hebrew ) Arabic And Galilean Arabic , The Verse 1John 5 ; 7 , That Has Become The Foundation For The 3 Beings In 1 Concept Called

The Trinity DID NOT EXIST , It Also DID NOT EXIST IN GREEK , The Distortion With The Onset Of The Roman Catholic Church The Roman Catholic Inserted The Trinity Verse When They Translated The Bible From Greek To Latin I Purposely

Said '' Inserted '' And Not '' Translated '' Because , As I've Already Said The Original Greek Did Not Have This Verse . HowEver , You Will Find Some Greek Translation Have Either The Whole Trinity Verse Or Only A Portion Of It , 1John 5; 7 Is Surround In Controversy Because There Are Two Versions

Of This Verse Your Bibilical Scholars Say 1John 5; 7 . That Is Used In Most Bibles Today . Is Either Not The Origian Verse . Or They Say That Its Only Partially Genuine . There Have Been Many Arguments Between Scholars On This Subject When In Fact There Shouldn't Be Any Arguments Because The Original Aramaic And The Greek Manuscripts Don't Have This

1John 5 ; 7 , In It . The Problem Is They Really Don't Want To Admit That The Trinity Really Has No Basis In The Teaching Of Yashua , Making The Trinitarian Churches And Any Other Sect That Believe In This 3 In 1 Concept Obsolete , FurtherMore , In The Ancient Eastern Manusripts By George M Lamsa Which Is A Bible That Is Translated From The Original Aramaic And Syriac Language On Page 1222 , In 1John 5 ; 7 , You Will See That The Orginal Verse Says This ;...


Original Verse And The Spirit Testifies That That Very Spirit Is The Truth
Mistraslation This is he who came by water and blood , even Jesus Christ , not by water only , but water and blood , And theSpirit testifies that that very Spirt is the truth . And there are three to bear witness the Spirit and , the water and the blood ; and these three are one ,
Now , When You Read 1 John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible , You Will Read This ,

1John 5 ; 7 For there are three that bear , Record in heaven , the father , the Word , and the holy ghost ; And these three are one . Do You See How The Verse Were Distorted ? They Are Both 1John 5 ; 7 , But They Don't Say The Same Thing ! That's Because In Your Standard Or Revised Edittion Bible , You Will Find The Original , Verse 5; 7 Has Been Actually Pushed Up To Merge With Verse 5; 6 . Now LQQk At 1John 5 ; 6 Below


'' This is he that came by water and , Blood , even Jesus Christ ; not by Water only , but by water and Blood And It Is The Spirit That Beareth Witness Because The Spirit Is Truth '' ;...The Underlined Segment Is Really The Original 1John 5 ; 7 By Combining The Original Verse 5 ;6 And 5 ; 7 Together , This Left Verse 5 ; 7 Made It Conviently Free To

Insert The False '' Trinity '' Verse . Just In Case You Think I Made This Up . Clarke's Commentary Also States That In The Very Early Bibles , This Verse Didn't Exist Clarke's Commentary Says This About 1John 5 ; 7 ;... '' But It Is Likely This Verse Is Not Genuine . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Every M .S . ( Manuscript ) Og This Epistle Written Before The Invention Of

Printing . One Expecyed . The Condex Montfortii , In '' Trinity College , Dublin ; The Others Which Omit , This Verse Amount To One Hundred And Twelve . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Both The Syriac . All The Arabic , Ethiopic , The Coptic , Sahidic .Armenian , Slavonian , In A Word , In All The Ancient Versions . But The Vulgate And Even Of This Version Many Of The Most Ancient And Correct , MSS . Have It Not .. It Is

Wanting ( Missing ) Also In All Ancient Greek Father , And In Most Even Of The Latin So What About Those Who Say A Portion Of The Quote Is True , Then There Are Those Scholars Who That Only Part Of This Quote Is Genuine Once Again , Let's Go Back To 1John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible . , The Father , The Word , And The Holy Ghost , And These Three

Are One > The Underlined Part Of This Quote Is The Part That Your So - Called Scholars Say Is Genuine . Some Bibles Are Equipped With Notes And Small Commentaries To Help You OverStand The Verses You Are Reading . If You Have Such A Bible . It Will Most Likely Say The Same Thing . For Instance , On Page 1776 In The Ryrie Study Bible It Says ;

Verse7 For there are three that bear record in heaven , The father the word , and the Holy Ghost and these three are one .
Commentary 5 ; 7 - 8 Should end with the word record The remander of Verse 7 And part of Verse 8 , Are Not In Any Ancient Greek Manuscript . Only In Later Latin Manuscripts .
Now , They Say Verse 7 And Verse 8 Is Only Partially

Genuine . There Are Even Some Greek Translation That Also Supports This Version , But That's Because They Were Translated From English Back Into Greek 1John 5 ; 7 Was Just Another Way To Confuse And Add Another False Sect And Belief . It Is One Of Those Things That Are Kept Quiet Because That Would Be The End Of Some People's Faith And That Is Something That People Who Promote Religion For A Profit Can't Afford To Do .

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Post #35

Post by InTheFlesh »

1John.5
[7]
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Even though I believe this verse to be true,
I did not make any reference to it.

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Post #36

Post by scottlittlefield17 »

The only argument you guys have to fall back on in the end is that "The bible is not accurate anyways" if you don't believe it is accurate don't make new threads concerning Biblical doctrines. Stick to the threads that deal with debating the Bible. I try to debate something and at every one it ends it up at the Bible not being accurate. If you can't debate the subject at hand without always turning to the Bible not being accurate then don't debate it. It is annoying that I can't ever debate a thread without having to debate whether the Bible is accurate which has nothing to do with the original question.
Last edited by scottlittlefield17 on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #37

Post by Scotracer »

InTheFlesh wrote:1John.5
[7]
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Even though I believe this verse to be true,
I did not make any reference to it.
The problem is that just because you can make a grammatically correct statement out of the collection of words doesn't mean the concept makes any sense. I could make all sorts of statements about things that are patently idiotic...but the sentence would still be correct.
Why Evolution is True
Universe from nothing

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
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Post #38

Post by InTheFlesh »

I'm just pointing out that I did not make reference to the verse which Kadmon when on and on about.

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Post #39

Post by McCulloch »

InTheFlesh wrote:1John.5
[7]
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Even though I believe this verse to be true,
I did not make any reference to it.
This text does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, nor in the passage as quoted by many of the early Church Fathers. The words apparently crept into the Latin text of the New Testament during the Middle Ages.

But even if it were, it is still unclear what being one really means. Jesus said in a prayer to the Father
I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
Here Jesus claims that the kind of oneness that he has with the Father, is the same kind of oneness that the believers have with each other and with him.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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InTheFlesh
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Post #40

Post by InTheFlesh »

InTheFlesh wrote:Isa.9
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matt.1
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

1Tim.3
[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[27] Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
These are the scriptures I brought up for debate? :-k

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