If Christ is not risen

[Yolande]

Do you aree?

And do you agree that Jesus Christ was risen from the dead?

And if you believe He has was risen from the dead, where is He now?

And how is that supposed to make a difference in people's lives if He was?

“And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up; if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.�
     -1 Corinthians 15:14-19 (NKJV)

Please share your thoughts on these questions and also on the statement from Paul.

[Cathar1950]

cnorman18,
For confirmation Jesus is Jewish Messiah
See
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm

That is Christian reconfirmation and they believed in Jesus as some kind of Christ or even a Jewish Messiah of sorts before they found the scriptures. The Greek translation of the Hebrew writings are not pointing to Jesus as the believer is projecting. If you read the so-called prophesies they are taken out of context and sometime even the content is ignored while others are no prophesies at all.
Bore of the seed of woman makes every human a candidate. Being a descendant of David and being a Jew are all interrelated and although it lowers the number of candidates the fulfillment of many are postponed for the end of days while they are being used as signs that have not been accomplished.
But Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. At best he was called or even anointed in a number of different possibiblities but even those are after the fact.

[Yolande]

Prove then please that He is not the Jewish Messiah.

cnorman18,
For confirmation Jesus is Jewish Messiah
See
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm

That is Christian reconfirmation and they believed in Jesus as some kind of Christ or even a Jewish Messiah of sorts before they found the scriptures. The Greek translation of the Hebrew writings are not pointing to Jesus as the believer is projecting. If you read the so-called prophesies they are taken out of context and sometime even the content is ignored while others are no prophesies at all.
Bore of the seed of woman makes every human a candidate. Being a descendant of David and being a Jew are all interrelated and although it lowers the number of candidates the fulfillment of many are postponed for the end of days while they are being used as signs that have not been accomplished.
But Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. At best he was called or even anointed in a number of different possibiblities but even those are after the fact.

[Yolande]

Prove then please that He is not the Jewish Messiah.

See also testimony on you tube of Jewish Rabbi who after spending many years searching scripture finally accepted Christ as the Jewish Messiah

cnorman18,
For confirmation Jesus is Jewish Messiah
See
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm

That is Christian reconfirmation and they believed in Jesus as some kind of Christ or even a Jewish Messiah of sorts before they found the scriptures. The Greek translation of the Hebrew writings are not pointing to Jesus as the believer is projecting. If you read the so-called prophesies they are taken out of context and sometime even the content is ignored while others are no prophesies at all.
Bore of the seed of woman makes every human a candidate. Being a descendant of David and being a Jew are all interrelated and although it lowers the number of candidates the fulfillment of many are postponed for the end of days while they are being used as signs that have not been accomplished.
But Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. At best he was called or even anointed in a number of different possibiblities but even those are after the fact.

[cnorman18]

Prove then please that He is not the Jewish Messiah.

Okay.

Proof 1: The Messianic Age has not begun.

The most consistent tradition about the Jewish Messiah, and the only "prophecy" that carries any weight for Jews, is that the advent of the Jewish Messiah is to coincide with the beginning of an age of perfect peace, justice, liberty and faith. That has not happened. Ergo, the Jewish Messiah has not yet arrived; ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

That alone is sufficient, but let's go on:

Proof 2: The Jewish Messiah was never conceived to be God in the flesh or the literal son of God. Those are Greek ideas, not Jewish ones.

The Jewish Messiah was and is expected to be an ordinary mortal man, as David was. Anointed, to be sure, just as David also was; but still an ordinary man. Ergo, the Christ, as understood by Christians, is not the same as the Jewish Messiah as understood by Jews. Ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Proof 3: Individual salvation from sin and from an eternal fiery Hell is not and has never been a Jewish concern. The Jewish religion is focused on THIS life; we leave Judgment and the nature of the next life, if any, to God.

Since belief in Jesus as the Christ is directed toward the end of individual salvation and going to Heaven, such a belief is irrelevant to Judaism. Ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Proof 4: "Belief," aka "faith," aka "thinking the right thoughts," has no value in the Jewish religion. The point of Judaism is right action, not correct thought. Ergo, "faith in Jesus" is irrelevant and immaterial to Jews; ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Proof 5: The books of the New Testament are not considered canonical, sacred, or authoritative by Jews. Ergo, any claims made in or by them are of no importance or interest to us, any more than claims made in the Vedas are of importance or interest to Christians.

The claims that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah are based entirely on claims made in the New Testament. Ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Proof 6: The tenets of any religion are properly decided and agreed upon by adherents of that religion and not by others who do not subscribe to it. The Jewish people collectively judged that Jesus was not our Messiah two thousand years ago, and have reaffirmed that judgment in every generation since. Ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, and non-Jews have no warrant to overrule our judgment and beliefs and insist that he was.

Jesus may very well have been sent by God as a "Messiah" for the Gentiles. We have no argument with that. But he was not sent to us, was not our Messiah, and no one has the right to revise the tenets of Jewish belief and tradition and tell us that we must accept that he was.

As I keep saying; you may believe as you like, and no one is saying that you have to acknowledge Jewish beliefs as true or correct; but you DO have a moral obligation to acknowledge Jewish beliefs as they are, and not falsify them and claim they are what you would like them to be. You may not make false claims about Jewish beliefs and make claims about Jesus as he is or ought to be regarded by Jews or by the Jewish religion, any more than I have the right to dictate the proper beliefs of Christians.

As for your "Jewish rabbi" whom you claim to have converted to Christianity:

Two points:

One: I post from a BlackBerry and cannot see YouTube videos; but I would bet that your "rabbi" was never ordained as a Jewish rabbi, but became a "rabbi" after he became "Messianic," aka Christian.

Two: Even if he was a genuine rabbi - so what? I am a seminary-trained former Christian minister and am now a Jew. His opinion and judgment are worth no more than my own.

Judaism and Christianity are profoundly different religions with profoundly different goals, priorities, and approaches. No one, including you, has the right to tell me or any Jew that I must abandon the precepts of my religion and adopt those of yours (just as no Jew ever told me that I should abandon Christianity and become a Jew); nor do you have the right to tell me that I, or any Jew, do not properly understand what my own religion teaches.

You may define your own religion. Not mine. If that is your intent, as it apparently is, we are done.

Have a nice day, and peace to you.

[Yolande]

I also type from a blackberry, and is able to view youtube.
Sorry you couldn't see it.

As for your arguments I do not see how that proves Jesus not to be the Messiah, and some of your arguments are vague - like if what the Messianic age that hasn't begun.


If Jesus is the Messiah, and He is the only way to the Father, and I have any godly love and concern for you,
It would imply that I would want you to see Him for whom I believe He is.

Prove then please that He is not the Jewish Messiah.

Okay.

Proof 1: The Messianic Age has not begun.

The most consistent tradition about the Jewish Messiah, and the only "prophecy" that carries any weight for Jews, is that the advent of the Jewish Messiah is to coincide with the beginning of an age of perfect peace, justice, liberty and faith. That has not happened. Ergo, the Jewish Messiah has not yet arrived; ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

That alone is sufficient, but let's go on:

Proof 2: The Jewish Messiah was never conceived to be God in the flesh or the literal son of God. Those are Greek ideas, not Jewish ones.

The Jewish Messiah was and is expected to be an ordinary mortal man, as David was. Anointed, to be sure, just as David also was; but still an ordinary man. Ergo, the Christ, as understood by Christians, is not the same as the Jewish Messiah as understood by Jews. Ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Proof 3: Individual salvation from sin and from an eternal fiery Hell is not and has never been a Jewish concern. The Jewish religion is focused on THIS life; we leave Judgment and the nature of the next life, if any, to God.

Since belief in Jesus as the Christ is directed toward the end of individual salvation and going to Heaven, such a belief is irrelevant to Judaism. Ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Proof 4: "Belief," aka "faith," aka "thinking the right thoughts," has no value in the Jewish religion. The point of Judaism is right action, not correct thought. Ergo, "faith in Jesus" is irrelevant and immaterial to Jews; ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Proof 5: The books of the New Testament are not considered canonical, sacred, or authoritative by Jews. Ergo, any claims made in or by them are of no importance or interest to us, any more than claims made in the Vedas are of importance or interest to Christians.

The claims that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah are based entirely on claims made in the New Testament. Ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

Proof 6: The tenets of any religion are properly decided and agreed upon by adherents of that religion and not by others who do not subscribe to it. The Jewish people collectively judged that Jesus was not our Messiah two thousand years ago, and have reaffirmed that judgment in every generation since. Ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, and non-Jews have no warrant to overrule our judgment and beliefs and insist that he was.

Jesus may very well have been sent by God as a "Messiah" for the Gentiles. We have no argument with that. But he was not sent to us, was not our Messiah, and no one has the right to revise the tenets of Jewish belief and tradition and tell us that we must accept that he was.

As I keep saying; you may believe as you like, and no one is saying that you have to acknowledge Jewish beliefs as true or correct; but you DO have a moral obligation to acknowledge Jewish beliefs as they are, and not falsify them and claim they are what you would like them to be. You may not make false claims about Jewish beliefs and make claims about Jesus as he is or ought to be regarded by Jews or by the Jewish religion, any more than I have the right to dictate the proper beliefs of Christians.

As for your "Jewish rabbi" whom you claim to have converted to Christianity:

Two points:

One: I post from a BlackBerry and cannot see YouTube videos; but I would bet that your "rabbi" was never ordained as a Jewish rabbi, but became a "rabbi" after he became "Messianic," aka Christian.

Two: Even if he was a genuine rabbi - so what? I am a seminary-trained former Christian minister and am now a Jew. His opinion and judgment are worth no more than my own.

Judaism and Christianity are profoundly different religions with profoundly different goals, priorities, and approaches. No one, including you, has the right to tell me or any Jew that I must abandon the precepts of my religion and adopt those of yours (just as no Jew ever told me that I should abandon Christianity and become a Jew); nor do you have the right to tell me that I, or any Jew, do not properly understand what my own religion teaches.

You may define your own religion. Not mine. If that is your intent, as it apparently is, we are done.

Have a nice day, and peace to you.

[kayky]

It is not loving to try to convert Jews to Christianity, Yolande. You should learn to respect the beliefs of others and not assume that what is right for you is right for everyone. God has been dealing with the Jews for a long time, and I think it is a huge mistake for you to interfere with that.

[McCulloch]

As for your arguments I do not see how that proves Jesus not to be the Messiah, and some of your arguments are vague - like if what the Messianic age that hasn't begun.

I think that you missed the point that CNorman was making. He has shown, rather conclusively, that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. He admits fully that Jesus may have been the Christian Messiah, but the Jesus described in the New Testament, did not fulfill the qualifications, ancient or modern, of Jewish messiahship.

[Yolande]

Your definition of love does not tie up to how love is illustrated in the bible.

Look at Paul 's words (Romans 9 amplified translation)
I am speaking the truth in Christ. I am not lying; my conscience by the Holy Spirit bearing witness with me.
That I have bitter grief and incessant anguish in my heart.
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off and banished from Christ for the sake of my brethren and instead of them, my natural kindsmen and my fellow countrymen. For they are Israelites, and to them belong God's adoption (as a nation) and the glorious Presence (Shekinah). With them were the special covenants made, to them was the Law given. To them (the temple) worship was revealed and (God's own) promises announced. To them belong the patriarchs, and as far as His natural descent was concerned, from them is the Christ, Who is exalted and supreme over all, God bless forever! Amen...."

It is not loving to try to convert Jews to Christianity, Yolande. You should learn to respect the beliefs of others and not assume that what is right for you is right for everyone. God has been dealing with the Jews for a long time, and I think it is a huge mistake for you to interfere with that.

[Yolande]

As for your arguments I do not see how that proves Jesus not to be the Messiah, and some of your arguments are vague - like if what the Messianic age that hasn't begun.

I think that you missed the point that CNorman was making.
He has shown, rather conclusively, that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.
He admits fully that Jesus may have been the Christian Messiah,
but the Jesus described in the New Testament
, did not fulfill the qualifications, ancient or modern, of Jewish messiahship.

Let's take his points one at a time then.
"Proof 1: The Messianic Age has not begun.

The most consistent tradition about the Jewish Messiah,
and the only "prophecy" that carries any weight for Jews,
is that the advent of the Jewish Messiah is to coincide
with the beginning of an age of perfect peace,
justice, liberty and faith.
That has not happened.
Ergo, the Jewish Messiah has not yet arrived; ergo, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah.

That alone is sufficient, but let's go on: "

1. To which scripture is he referring to and
2. What kind of peave, justice liberty and faith is scripture talking about.
(For example peace, Jesus is the prince of peace, for those who are in Him, but for others He is a rock of offense Romans 9:33.
His peace is not the worldly kind. Jesus himself said He did not come to bring that kind of peace, but the sword. Yet He is the Sabbath rest for those who abide in Him and the fruit of His Spirit is deep peace inside).
3. What time is there talking about (for Jesus is coming again)

That is why I am saying it is so vague.

And when done with this point, we can go to the next.

Nothing have been proven to me, except that he is from his perspective sure Jesus is not the Messiah.

[McCulloch]

It is not loving to try to convert Jews to Christianity, Yolande.

I disagree. Are attempts to convert others to Christianity loving?

You should learn to respect the beliefs of others and not assume that what is right for you is right for everyone.

Is truth subjective?

God has been dealing with the Jews for a long time, and I think it is a huge mistake for you to interfere with that.

Why?