Why isn't perfection possible?

[McCulloch]

[T]he Sermon on the Mount [...] sets a high standard of Godliness, and convicts of sin, but anyone who understands the Biblical issues involved in progressive sanctification by the Holy Spirit should admit that perfection is not possible by mere mortals on this earth.

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Why is it that many Christians feel that the Holy Spirit cannot actually do what Jesus said should be done? Why is it that Christians, with the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, cannot choose to stop sinning? What are the Biblical issues supporting this doctrine of inevitable failure on the part of every Christian's best effort?

[I AM ALL I AM]

Is perfection of self based upon what you think, speak, act, or is it based upon the result that you get from thinking, speaking, acting ?

My presumption, based on the way I understand the Biblical record, is that it would be all of the above.

G'day Elucidate.

What is "the Biblical record" ?

Would this also mean that the combination of thoughts, actions, words give you the perfect result BECAUSE of the specific thoughts, action, words that you have chosen ?

[Easyrider]

[T]he Sermon on the Mount [...] sets a high standard of Godliness, and convicts of sin, but anyone who understands the Biblical issues involved in progressive sanctification by the Holy Spirit should admit that perfection is not possible by mere mortals on this earth.

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Why is it that many Christians feel that the Holy Spirit cannot actually do what Jesus said should be done? Why is it that Christians, with the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, cannot choose to stop sinning? What are the Biblical issues supporting this doctrine of inevitable failure on the part of every Christian's best effort?

First What Is The Holy Spirit ????

Actually, it's WHO is the Holy Spirit? Biblically speaking, Jesus identified the Holy Spirit as "HIM" or "HE" in John chapter 14. The Holy Spirit is further identified as God in Acts chapter 5 and Matthew 28:18-19. He's the Third Person of the Trinity. And here's some of what HE does, according to Scripture (the following per Christian scholar Kevin Conner):

THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

Not only does the Holy Spirit exhibit personal feelings and attributes, but He also performs a number of personal functions:

1. The Holy Spirit can speak: "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them'" (Acts 13:2).

2. He will convict the world of sin and guilt: "When He comes, He (the Holy Spirit) will convict the world of guilt, in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me..." (John 16:8-9)

3. The Holy Spirit teaches: "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (John 14:26)

4. The Holy Spirit strengthens and encourages: "Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened and encouraged by the Holy Spirit." (Acts 9:31)

5. The Holy Spirit testifies (usually about Christ): "And it is the (Holy) Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth." (1 John 5:7)

6. The Holy Spirit purposefully leads: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." (Matthew 4:1) This is a significant verse because it is written that God tempts no man (James 1:13), but it seems clear from scripture that it is occasionally His purpose to allow Satan to tempt man.

7. The Holy Spirit gives glory to Jesus Christ (which I believe is one of His primary purposes): "He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you." (John 16:14)

8. He searches all things: "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God." (I Corinthians 2:10)

9. He creates: "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life." (Job 33:4)

10. The Holy Spirit is instrumental in regeneration: "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Holy Spirit." (John 3:5)

11. The Holy Spirit indwells believers: "And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, WHO LIVES IN YOU." (Romans 8:11)

12. The Holy Spirit anoints: "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth." (1 John 2:20; also note the baptism of Jesus, when the Holy Spirit came to rest upon Him in the form of a dove).

13. The Holy Spirit empowers: "But as for me, I am filled with power, with the Spirit of the Lord." (Micah 3:8)

14. The Holy Spirit gives joy: "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17)

15: The Holy Spirit sanctifies: "....Sanctified by the Holy Spirit." (Romans 15:16)

16. He provides discernment: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (I Cor. 2:14)

17. The Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts: Among these are the gifts of speaking in tongues, wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, and the interpretation of tongues. (I Corinthians 12)

18. The Holy Spirit provides spiritual fruit: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." (Galatians 5:22) I like to teach that the first fruit, love, is incorporated into all the remaining fruit. For instance, because we love God's word and our fellow man, we are kind and patient with him, and so on.

These, then, are some of the works and characteristics of the Holy Spirit that are seen in the New Testament church.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE LIFE OF CHRIST

Author Kevin Conner lists the following evidences of the Holy Spirit working in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Conner):

1. He was born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18-20).
2. He was filled with the fulness of the Spirit (John 3:34).
3. He was led by the Spirit (Matthew 4:1).
4. He was empowered by the Spirit (Luke 4:14).
5. He was anointed by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
6. He spoke and taught by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
7. He healed the sick by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
8. He cast out devils by the power of the Spirit (Matthew 12:28)
9. He was justified (vindicated) by the Spirit (I Timothy 3:16).
10. He was offered up on Calvary by the Spirit (Hebrews 9:14).
11. He was resurrected by the Spirit (Romans 8:11, I Peter 3:18).
12. He gave commandments to the disciples by the Spirit (Acts 1:2).
13. He baptized and empowered the church by the Spirit (Acts 1:5, 8)
14. He directs and governs the church by the Spirit (Revelation 2:7, 11).

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE LIFE OF THE BELIEVER

Conner also provides the following evidences of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, much like what we saw in the life of Christ:

1. The new birth is brought about by the Spirit (John 3:5-6).
2. The Spirit indwells the believer's spirit (Romans 8:9; I Corinthians 3:16; 6:17).
3. The Spirit gives assurance of salvation (Romans 8:16).
4. The Spirit fills the believer with Himself (Acts 2:4).
5. The Spirit speaks to the believer (Acts 8:29; I Timothy 4:1; Revelation 2:7).
6. The Spirit provides understanding about the things of God (I Corinthians 2:12)
7. The Spirit teaches and guides the believer (John 16:13; I John 2:27).
8. The Spirit imparts life (John 6:63; II Corinthians 3:6).
9. The Spirit brings about renewal (Titus 3:5).
10. The Spirit strengthens the believer's inner being (Ephesians 3:16).
11. The Spirit enables the believer to pray (Jude 20; Romans 8:26-28).
12. The Spirit enables the believer to worship in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24; Philippians 3:3; I Corinthians 14:15).
13. The Spirit leads the believer (Romans 8:14).
14. The Spirit enables the believer to put carnal works to death (Romans 8:13).
15. The Spirit produces Christ-likeness in character and fruit in the believer's life (Galatians 5:22, 23).
16. The Spirit gives a calling to the believer for special service (Acts 13:2-4).
17. The Spirit guides believers into their ministry (Acts 8:29; 16:6-7).
18. The Spirit empowers the believer to witness (Acts 1:8).
19. The Spirit imparts spiritual gifts as He wills (I Corinthians 12:7-11).
20. The Spirit will bring about the resurrection and immortality to the believers' bodies in the last day (Romans 8:11; I Corinthians 15:47-51; I Thes. 4:15-18).

TITLES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

1. The Spirit of Wisdom (Isaiah 11:2; Ephesians 1:17).
2. The Spirit of Knowledge (Isaiah 11:2).
3. The Spirit of Counsel and Might (Isaiah 11:2).
4. The Spirit of Grace and Supplication (Zechariah 12:10).
5. The Spirit of Judgment (Isaiah 4:4).
6. The Spirit of Burning (Isaiah 4:4).
7. The Breath of the Almighty (Job 32:8; 33:4).
8. The Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11; I Peter 3:18).
9. The Power of the Highest (Luke 1:35).
10. The Eternal Spirit (Hebrews 9:14).
11. The Spirit of Holiness (Romans 1:4).
12. The Comforter (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7).
13. The Spirit of Love (II Timothy 1:7).
14. The Spirit of Truth (John 14:17; 16:13; 15:26; I John 4:6).
15. The Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2; Revelation 11:11).
16. The Spirit of Adoption (Romans 8:15).
17. The Spirit of Faith (II Corinthians 4:13).
18. The Spirit of Promise (Ephesians 1:13-14).
19. The Spirit of Grace (Zechariah 12:10; Hebrews 10:29).
20. The Spirit of Glory (I Peter 4:14).
21. The Spirit of Power (II Timothy 1:7).
22. The Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation (Ephesians 1:17).
23. The Spirit of Prophecy (Revelation 19:10).
24. The Good Spirit (Nehemiah 9:30).
25. The Free Spirit (Psalm 51:12).
26. The Unction from the Holy One (I John 2:20).
27. The Anointing which teaches us (I John 2:27).
28. The Voice of the Lord (Ezekiel 1:24; Genesis 3:8; Isaiah 6:8).
(All references Kevin Conner, The Fundamentals of Christian Doctrine, pages 82-83).

As far as Christians being "perfect," according to Scripture Christians will be raised "Incorruptible." So eventually, according to the Bible, that's where the "perfection" comes in - in the afterlife.

[McCulloch]

First What Is The Holy Spirit ????

Actually, it's WHO is the Holy Spirit?

No, the question was, "What is the Holy Spirit?" For example, the question who is McCulloch is different from the question what is McCulloch. Who is McCulloch would be answered in certain ways, relationships, actions etc. What is McCulloch would be answered differently; McCulloch is a human; McCulloch is a Canadian; McCulloch is a humanist.

What is the Holy Spirit?

[elucidate]

Is perfection of self based upon what you think, speak, act, or is it based upon the result that you get from thinking, speaking, acting ?

My presumption, based on the way I understand the Biblical record, is that it would be all of the above.

What is "the Biblical record" ?

The Bible

Would this also mean that the combination of thoughts, actions, words give you the perfect result BECAUSE of the specific thoughts, action, words that you have chosen ?[/b][/color]

I have no idea what u mean here, sorry.

[Easyrider]

First What Is The Holy Spirit ????

Actually, it's WHO is the Holy Spirit?

No, the question was, "What is the Holy Spirit?" For example, the question who is McCulloch is different from the question what is McCulloch. Who is McCulloch would be answered in certain ways, relationships, actions etc. What is McCulloch would be answered differently; McCulloch is a human; McCulloch is a Canadian; McCulloch is a humanist.

What is the Holy Spirit?

Please see my previous post, which not only tells folks WHAT he does but WHO he is. If you want another WHAT, then the WHAT is GOD, according to Scripture, and according to Scripture God creates, saves, teaches, leads, and all the other things the GOD of the Bible does.

[JoeyKnothead]

[T]he Sermon on the Mount [...] sets a high standard of Godliness, and convicts of sin, but anyone who understands the Biblical issues involved in progressive sanctification by the Holy Spirit should admit that perfection is not possible by mere mortals on this earth.

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Why is it that many Christians feel that the Holy Spirit cannot actually do what Jesus said should be done? Why is it that Christians, with the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, cannot choose to stop sinning? What are the Biblical issues supporting this doctrine of inevitable failure on the part of every Christian's best effort?

First What Is The Holy Spirit ????

Actually, it's WHO is the Holy Spirit? Biblically speaking, Jesus identified the Holy Spirit as "HIM" or "HE" in John chapter 14. The Holy Spirit is further identified as God in Acts chapter 5 and Matthew 28:18-19. He's the Third Person of the Trinity. And here's some of what HE does, according to Scripture (the following per Christian scholar Kevin Conner):

THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

Not only does the Holy Spirit exhibit personal feelings and attributes, but He also performs a number of personal functions:

1. The Holy Spirit can speak: "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, 'Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them'" (Acts 13:2).

2. He will convict the world of sin and guilt: "When He comes, He (the Holy Spirit) will convict the world of guilt, in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me..." (John 16:8-9)

3. The Holy Spirit teaches: "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (John 14:26)

4. The Holy Spirit strengthens and encourages: "Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened and encouraged by the Holy Spirit." (Acts 9:31)

5. The Holy Spirit testifies (usually about Christ): "And it is the (Holy) Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth." (1 John 5:7)

6. The Holy Spirit purposefully leads: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." (Matthew 4:1) This is a significant verse because it is written that God tempts no man (James 1:13), but it seems clear from scripture that it is occasionally His purpose to allow Satan to tempt man.

7. The Holy Spirit gives glory to Jesus Christ (which I believe is one of His primary purposes): "He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you." (John 16:14)

8. He searches all things: "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God." (I Corinthians 2:10)

9. He creates: "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life." (Job 33:4)

10. The Holy Spirit is instrumental in regeneration: "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Holy Spirit." (John 3:5)

11. The Holy Spirit indwells believers: "And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, WHO LIVES IN YOU." (Romans 8:11)

12. The Holy Spirit anoints: "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth." (1 John 2:20; also note the baptism of Jesus, when the Holy Spirit came to rest upon Him in the form of a dove).

13. The Holy Spirit empowers: "But as for me, I am filled with power, with the Spirit of the Lord." (Micah 3:8)

14. The Holy Spirit gives joy: "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17)

15: The Holy Spirit sanctifies: "....Sanctified by the Holy Spirit." (Romans 15:16)

16. He provides discernment: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (I Cor. 2:14)

17. The Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts: Among these are the gifts of speaking in tongues, wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, and the interpretation of tongues. (I Corinthians 12)

18. The Holy Spirit provides spiritual fruit: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." (Galatians 5:22) I like to teach that the first fruit, love, is incorporated into all the remaining fruit. For instance, because we love God's word and our fellow man, we are kind and patient with him, and so on.

These, then, are some of the works and characteristics of the Holy Spirit that are seen in the New Testament church.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE LIFE OF CHRIST

Author Kevin Conner lists the following evidences of the Holy Spirit working in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Conner):

1. He was born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18-20).
2. He was filled with the fulness of the Spirit (John 3:34).
3. He was led by the Spirit (Matthew 4:1).
4. He was empowered by the Spirit (Luke 4:14).
5. He was anointed by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
6. He spoke and taught by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
7. He healed the sick by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
8. He cast out devils by the power of the Spirit (Matthew 12:28)
9. He was justified (vindicated) by the Spirit (I Timothy 3:16).
10. He was offered up on Calvary by the Spirit (Hebrews 9:14).
11. He was resurrected by the Spirit (Romans 8:11, I Peter 3:18).
12. He gave commandments to the disciples by the Spirit (Acts 1:2).
13. He baptized and empowered the church by the Spirit (Acts 1:5, 8)
14. He directs and governs the church by the Spirit (Revelation 2:7, 11).

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE LIFE OF THE BELIEVER

Conner also provides the following evidences of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, much like what we saw in the life of Christ:

1. The new birth is brought about by the Spirit (John 3:5-6).
2. The Spirit indwells the believer's spirit (Romans 8:9; I Corinthians 3:16; 6:17).
3. The Spirit gives assurance of salvation (Romans 8:16).
4. The Spirit fills the believer with Himself (Acts 2:4).
5. The Spirit speaks to the believer (Acts 8:29; I Timothy 4:1; Revelation 2:7).
6. The Spirit provides understanding about the things of God (I Corinthians 2:12)
7. The Spirit teaches and guides the believer (John 16:13; I John 2:27).
8. The Spirit imparts life (John 6:63; II Corinthians 3:6).
9. The Spirit brings about renewal (Titus 3:5).
10. The Spirit strengthens the believer's inner being (Ephesians 3:16).
11. The Spirit enables the believer to pray (Jude 20; Romans 8:26-28).
12. The Spirit enables the believer to worship in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24; Philippians 3:3; I Corinthians 14:15).
13. The Spirit leads the believer (Romans 8:14).
14. The Spirit enables the believer to put carnal works to death (Romans 8:13).
15. The Spirit produces Christ-likeness in character and fruit in the believer's life (Galatians 5:22, 23).
16. The Spirit gives a calling to the believer for special service (Acts 13:2-4).
17. The Spirit guides believers into their ministry (Acts 8:29; 16:6-7).
18. The Spirit empowers the believer to witness (Acts 1:8).
19. The Spirit imparts spiritual gifts as He wills (I Corinthians 12:7-11).
20. The Spirit will bring about the resurrection and immortality to the believers' bodies in the last day (Romans 8:11; I Corinthians 15:47-51; I Thes. 4:15-18).

TITLES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

1. The Spirit of Wisdom (Isaiah 11:2; Ephesians 1:17).
2. The Spirit of Knowledge (Isaiah 11:2).
3. The Spirit of Counsel and Might (Isaiah 11:2).
4. The Spirit of Grace and Supplication (Zechariah 12:10).
5. The Spirit of Judgment (Isaiah 4:4).
6. The Spirit of Burning (Isaiah 4:4).
7. The Breath of the Almighty (Job 32:8; 33:4).
8. The Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11; I Peter 3:18).
9. The Power of the Highest (Luke 1:35).
10. The Eternal Spirit (Hebrews 9:14).
11. The Spirit of Holiness (Romans 1:4).
12. The Comforter (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7).
13. The Spirit of Love (II Timothy 1:7).
14. The Spirit of Truth (John 14:17; 16:13; 15:26; I John 4:6).
15. The Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2; Revelation 11:11).
16. The Spirit of Adoption (Romans 8:15).
17. The Spirit of Faith (II Corinthians 4:13).
18. The Spirit of Promise (Ephesians 1:13-14).
19. The Spirit of Grace (Zechariah 12:10; Hebrews 10:29).
20. The Spirit of Glory (I Peter 4:14).
21. The Spirit of Power (II Timothy 1:7).
22. The Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation (Ephesians 1:17).
23. The Spirit of Prophecy (Revelation 19:10).
24. The Good Spirit (Nehemiah 9:30).
25. The Free Spirit (Psalm 51:12).
26. The Unction from the Holy One (I John 2:20).
27. The Anointing which teaches us (I John 2:27).
28. The Voice of the Lord (Ezekiel 1:24; Genesis 3:8; Isaiah 6:8).
(All references Kevin Conner, The Fundamentals of Christian Doctrine, pages 82-83).

As far as Christians being "perfect," according to Scripture Christians will be raised "Incorruptible." So eventually, according to the Bible, that's where the "perfection" comes in - in the afterlife.

'Preciate you numbering them for me. Now, since you offer all these claims, please offer evidence they are true.

[Easyrider]

'Preciate you numbering them for me. Now, since you offer all these claims, please offer evidence they are true.

I don't believe that is required. Somebody wanted to know what or who the Holy Spirit was / is and I gave them the (Biblical) Christian response.

And, according to Christianity & Apologetics Subforum Guidelines # 2, "...using the Bible as the only source to argue what is authentic Christianity is legitimate."

As far as I'm concerned that is what was being discussed.

[bernee51]

'Preciate you numbering them for me. Now, since you offer all these claims, please offer evidence they are true.

Don't have to.

According to Christianity & Apologetics Subforum Guidelines # 2, "...using the Bible as the only source to argue what is authentic Christianity is legitimate."

As far as I'm concerned that is what was being discussed.

Gotta agree with you ER.

As far as your christian beliefs and worldview go all of the above (carefully numbered) coul dbe considered as 'true'.

In the rest of the world, however, they are unsubstantiated claims.

[Easyrider]

'Preciate you numbering them for me. Now, since you offer all these claims, please offer evidence they are true.

Don't have to.

According to Christianity & Apologetics Subforum Guidelines # 2, "...using the Bible as the only source to argue what is authentic Christianity is legitimate."

As far as I'm concerned that is what was being discussed.

Gotta agree with you ER.

As far as your christian beliefs and worldview go all of the above (carefully numbered) coul dbe considered as 'true'.

In the rest of the world, however, they are unsubstantiated claims.

Thank you bernee. Perhaps there should be an understanding or announcement provided by forum management that when someone inquires about a Biblical concept, person, place, or event, that when a Scriptural response explaining that Biblical concept, person, place, or event is subsequently provided in good faith, it need not be considered a CLAIM, requiring PROOF. Perhaps someone could clarify that or how to present the response in the future so they aren't peppered with "Prove it" or "show us the evidence" demands.

[Cathar1950]

'Preciate you numbering them for me. Now, since you offer all these claims, please offer evidence they are true.

Don't have to.

According to Christianity & Apologetics Subforum Guidelines # 2, "...using the Bible as the only source to argue what is authentic Christianity is legitimate."

As far as I'm concerned that is what was being discussed.

Gotta agree with you ER.

As far as your christian beliefs and worldview go all of the above (carefully numbered) coul dbe considered as 'true'.

In the rest of the world, however, they are unsubstantiated claims.

Thank you bernee. Perhaps there should be an understanding or announcement provided by forum management that when someone inquires about a Biblical concept, person, place, or event, that when a Scriptural response explaining that Biblical concept, person, place, or event is subsequently provided in good faith, it need not be considered a CLAIM, requiring PROOF. Perhaps someone could clarify that or how to present the response in the future so they aren't peppered with "Prove it" or "show us the evidence" demands.

There is no need to prove it as we all understand it to be unprovable. It is not evidence; it is a list of passages making claims and statements you have yet to explain beyond a simple reading. You fail to explain your interpretation or reinterpretation.
How is your list of passages which are taken out of context and devoid of content an answer to any question?