A suggestion for Christians

[OnceConvinced]

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven? The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture. However many of these people contradict each other. This is not at all helpful and I'm sure you agree that if one gets it wrong the ramifications are horrendous and many people, like I have, could spend their lives genuinely following what they believed to be Christ and correct doctrine, but find they were never true Christians to begin with because of their ignorance.

I'd like to suggest all the Christians get together in the Holy Huddle room to remedy this problem.

First of all, using holy spirit discernment, weed out all those who aren't true Christians and with those of you left, nut out together what it takes to consider yourself a true Christian.

You all being true Christians and having the holy spirit within you, I would invisage no problem with accomplishing this task. You can then come back to us as a group with your final list of conditions to consider one a true Christian and worthy of eternal life; worshiping God for all eternity, thus ensuring that we lost and sinful folk have accurate information that we can accept or reject Christ by.

Also while you are at it, for those who completely reject the bible, perhaps you could also come to a unified agreement on what Hell actually is. Is it eternal suffering, death by fire or simply the grave? I'm sure with the understanding given to you by the holy spirit, this should be an easy question for you true Christians to answer and would leave us with little doubt what we are in for if we continue on our evil and abominable ways.

If any other people have any topics they'd like sorted out perhaps they can post them on this thread? I'm sure that the holy spirit will be able to deal with them all quickly and efficiently. Maybe at last we can find out what the real truth is and what the bible really is saying to us?

I look forward to our Christian members here showing the sort of unity Paul so desired amongst the believers. I'm sure you will be eager to assist God in spreading the truth to the rest of us here and the many thousands who come into this site and read.

......................


So now having read this OP do you agree that with the Holy spirit, this venture should be easily undertaken?

If not, why not?

And if Christians cannot come to a consensus amongst themselves, using the holy spirit to gain understanding, how can any unbelievers take the bible or Christians seriously? ](*,)

[catalyst]

In this sub-forum,
I debate doctrine.
So if you are not debating doctrine,
I have nothing to add to your reply.

I'm not interested in your personal opinion
about my beliefs.
I get plenty of that in the Christianity and Apologetics forum

Ironically, I was merely replying to questions you put out there in the first place and given the nature of many of my replies, I WAS debating doctrine, which by definition is nothing more than a taught belief system. Ihe word in itself claims no assumption that this taught belief system is actually valid, just as it doesn't stress it is invalid. It is ones personal interpretation of said teachings which determine whether it is seen as some "truth" or not. That being the case, the simple fact you are debating(definition: contention by words or arguement) doctrine, simply means you are taking ONE side of said debate.

Certainly, in this particular sub-forum, it states:"The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here."

However, nowhere in the rules of this sub-forum does it state that all participants must be part of a mutual admiration society, where "nay-sayers" are not allowed, but rather it stresses this is a place to freely engage in debate on christian theology.

ITF wrote:This specifically:

I'm not interested in your personal opinion
about my beliefs.

If that is the case, then don't put them out there TO be questioned or debated in the first place.

and Lastly:

I have nothing to add to your reply.

So as you have no rebuttal, does that mean I am the victor in our "debate"?

Dang, and I didn't even get to give a closing arguement... or...hmmm ...is that what I just did.....

[InTheFlesh]

Here's a good example...

In your last post you stated:

"Ihe word in itself claims no assumption that this taught belief system is actually valid"

What taught belief system?
The scriptures are pretty clear
that one must put their faith and trust in God!

No one can judge whether another
has or doesn't have faith in God.
It is God who knows our hearts!

[catalyst]

Here's a good example...

In your last post you stated:

"Ihe word in itself claims no assumption that this taught belief system is actually valid"

What taught belief system?

A doctrine is a taught belief system. Individuals usually put their own "spin" to suit themselves ON it.

Definition: doc·trine
1archaic : teaching , instruction
2 a: something that is taught b: a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief :

DOGMA: - Well it professes to assert authority, however without adequate grounds.

Main Entry: dog·ma
1 a: something held as an established opinion ; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b: a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c: a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church.

Both definitions, courtesy of Merriam-Webster

The scriptures are pretty clear
that one must put their faith and trust in God!

Yes, the TAUGHT scriptures of the bible.

No one can judge whether another
has or doesn't have faith in God.

I don't know about that. I have witnessed many a christian on this site alone making that judgement ad nauseum, not only to other christians but those of other faiths. I have no doubt you have taken part in at least one of the may "true christian" questiongs on here and again no doubt you have made claims that others "faith" was not up to scratch as yours "is" (to you).
I actually believe that this was one reason OC actually started this thread, in the hope that the christians on here could at least AGREE.

I for one have never questioned yours or any other christians faith on the board. I do however question the validity OF "faith". Two different things, ITF.

It is God who knows our hearts!

If that is the case, then please feel free to quote the exact scripture where it states that. However what that has to do with validity OF faith, I don't know.

[dunsapy]

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven? The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture. However many of these people contradict each other. This is not at all helpful and I'm sure you agree that if one gets it wrong the ramifications are horrendous and many people, like I have, could spend their lives genuinely following what they believed to be Christ and correct doctrine, but find they were never true Christians to begin with because of their ignorance.

The bible tells us there would be divisions among Christians. So this has to be. So on a forum like this and from what we see in the world from Christianity , should make you stronger. The world and religions are going along as prophesied. It is encouraging to see. Because it tells us, about the time period we are living in. The bible says 'lift your head up'.
So even though life can be hard for some, and it's going to get scarier , and harder to deal with, this is the best time to be a Christian.

[catalyst]

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven? The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture. However many of these people contradict each other. This is not at all helpful and I'm sure you agree that if one gets it wrong the ramifications are horrendous and many people, like I have, could spend their lives genuinely following what they believed to be Christ and correct doctrine, but find they were never true Christians to begin with because of their ignorance.

The bible tells us there would be divisions among Christians. So this has to be. So on a forum like this and from what we see in the world from Christianity , should make you stronger. The world and religions are going along as prophesied. It is encouraging to see. Because it tells us, about the time period we are living in. The bible says 'lift your head up'.
So even though life can be hard for some, and it's going to get scarier , and harder to deal with, this is the best time to be a Christian.

Dunsapy,

Where in the bible does it state that there would be divisions among Christians?

Could you please cite specific passages relating to this?

I was of the impression that the message of bible jesus was one of unity; "one".

I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may be one in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. (John 17:20-23)

[dunsapy]

Where in the bible does it state that there would be divisions among Christians?

2 Timothy3 ; 1 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 6 For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
8 Now in the way that Jan′nes and Jam′bres resisted Moses, so these also go on resisting the truth, men completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. 9 Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their madness will be very plain to all, even as the [madness] of those [two men] became. 10 But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my long-suffering, my love, my endurance, 11 my persecutions, my sufferings, the sort of things that happened to me in Antioch, in I‧co′ni‧um, in Lys′tra, the sort of persecutions I have borne; and yet out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted. 13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.

This is talking about the followers of Jesus that started, to deviate from the truth.
Did you notice that they would have a form of Godly devotion but proved false to its power. There are many Christian religions.

Rom. 10:2, 3: I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

People may have God’s written Word but lack accurate knowledge of what it contains, because they have not been taught properly. They may feel that they are zealous for God, but they may not be doing what he requires. Their worship is not going to please God, is it?

[catalyst]

dunsapy wrote:

This is talking about the followers of Jesus that started, to deviate from the truth.
Did you notice that they would have a form of Godly devotion but proved false to its power. There are many Christian religions.

There is only one religion of christianity, but many "sects - (denominations of)

May I ask, Dunsapy are you of the impression that whichever denonimation you personally follow DOES ring true to the teachings of,given this example, the Pauline doctrine, over that of the alleged teachings of bible jesus "himself"? (as given by examples of John (as pe above) and also the following - giving the message of unity: John 17:9-11,John 10:16,John 17:21-3, John 15:5.

People may have God’s written Word but lack accurate knowledge of what it contains, because they have not been taught properly. They may feel that they are zealous for God, but they may not be doing what he requires. Their worship is not going to please God, is it?

As asked above, do you believe YOU have been taught properly and it is just others whom haven't?

Apparently by your words too, you assume it is close to "end times" as well? If that is the case, just how do you come to that conclusion?

[dunsapy]

As asked above, do you believe YOU have been taught properly and it is just others whom haven't?

Apparently by your words too, you assume it is close to "end times" as well? Rolling Eyes If that is the case, just how do you come to that conclusion?

Yes I do. I know that sounds arrogant. I don't mean it that way.
it doesn't mean I know everything, or am perfect, but it does mean there is truth.

But if you look into the bible it was mostly written about people, in their time, but was written for the people of our time . ( the last days). What this means is that much of the bible parallels situations in our time. For instance the last days, is spoken of like in the days of Noah . The Pharisees, picture Christendoms clergy class , today. When Jesus came to the earth, he took his followers, away from the pharisees. ( remember that God started the priestly class, God set this up.) This is like Christendom, Jesus started it out, and set it up. But just like the Pharisees , Christendom has mislead the people. That is what is meant in my earlier post about the disunity of Christianity. So when Jesus comes again , he will take people away from established Christianity ( just like when he took people away from the established Pharisees) and give it to ones that want to do his will. These ones will still be believe in Jesus, but it will be a new beginning, just like , what happened when Jesus took his followers away from the Pharisees .

[InTheFlesh]

Here's a good example...

In your last post you stated:

"Ihe word in itself claims no assumption that this taught belief system is actually valid"

What taught belief system?

A doctrine is a taught belief system. Individuals usually put their own "spin" to suit themselves ON it.

The scriptures are pretty clear
that one must put their faith and trust in God!

Yes, the TAUGHT scriptures of the bible.

No one can judge whether another
has or doesn't have faith in God.

It is God who knows our hearts!

If that is the case, then please feel free to quote the exact scripture where it states that. However what that has to do with validity OF faith, I don't know.

2Tim.2
[19] Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.

Luke.16
[15] And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts:

Acts.15
[8] And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Rom.8
[27] And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

[dunsapy]

A doctrine is a taught belief system. Individuals usually put their own "spin" to suit themselves ON it.

2 Peter 1:20 For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

It took me a long time to figure out what this meant. On one hand it means that the bible is inspired. But on the other hand , it means the bible interprets itself .
It is this thought , that should make the difference in finding accurate knowledge in the bible. And uniting Christians. But Christians are not united. That means some have a form of Godly devotion, but without accurate knowledge.