+++ THE COLLECTIVE MESSIAH +++

Ben Masada · Post by **Ben Masada** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:42 pm

The text is the whole chapter 53 of Isaiah.

We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then, who did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter
53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah
1:1. "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem. That's the theme of the whole book of
Isaiah: Judah. The House of Jacob, called by the new name Israel, from the stock
of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)

Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. Here we have established a
syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and that Servant is
indetified with Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel, the Jewish
People is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epithet of son of God, there is no paradox;
we can have that from Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1. "Israel is My son; so let
My son go that he may serve Me." Says the Lord.

Last but not least, Jesus was no doubt part of the Messiah but not on an individual
basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially when
in exile, is of a Messianic leader to inspire or lead the Messiah back home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah and for financing the rebuilding of the Temple. And herzl was another for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.

Ben

Ben Masada · Post by **Ben Masada** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:07 am

Paul2 wrote:Ben,

You wrote:If it were not out of order, we would not have so many who take Biblical anthropomorphy so literally.

So, God was wrong to inspire it?
Ben: The emanation to inspire doesn't come only from God.

You wrote:The Romans didn't come only to Israel, but throughout the known world.

The others weren't promised protection from God, if they were obedient.
Ben: In that case, there was no nation at that time that obeyed God because the Romans conquered them all, except for the Parthians.

You wrote:Freewill is the quasi-absolute Divine attribute granted to man.

I hope you are not a teacher.
Ben: As a matter of fact, I am.

You wrote:Evil per se does not exist. Evil is made when man chooses to ill-use his freewill. God did create eveything but not what does not exist.

Evil does not exist, but man makes it by his "freewill"? So, man can make something which cannot exist?
Ben: Evil per se does not exist. It needs to be made, and man does, not God.

You wrote:Do you know something? I am going to agree with you if you open the Bible that Jesus used to handle and show me a quotation, one is enough, where the name of the son of God is written down. Since I am sure you can't, why don't you open on Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1? The name of God's son is down on the paper. I won't tell you here the name, because I know if I do you won't check it out. I suggest that you read it with your own eyes so you will never forget the name of the son of God. Good luck!

The nation, Israel, was God's son and God's wife. How does that work, unless we take both metaphorically? A son cannot be a wife.
Ben: Almost the whole Bible must be taken metaphorically or we will be dealing with a book of contradictions.

Jesus is God's only-begotten and un-metaphorically first born son.
Ben: And proof for this you will find only in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology.

Ben:

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:55 am

Ben,

You wrote:The emanation to inspire doesn't come only from God.

Who inspired this?

Ex 33:20 And He said, "You will not be able to see My face, for man shall not see Me and live."

You wrote:In that case, there was no nation at that time that obeyed God because the Romans conquered them all, except for the Parthians.

Israel was promised protection, if they obeyed. They weren't protected and therefore they did not obey.

You wrote:As a matter of fact, I am.

I thought you might be.

You wrote:Evil per se does not exist. It needs to be made, and man does, not God.

But God says He creates it (Isaiah 45:7).

You wrote:
Almost the whole Bible must be taken metaphorically or we will be dealing with a book of contradictions.

Israel is a metaphorical first born son and a metaphorical wife.

You wrote:And proof for this you will find only in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology.

You won't find proof anywhere, today.

Paul

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:19 pm

I wrote:Israel was promised protection, if they obeyed. They weren't protected and therefore they did not obey.

Meaning...God's withdrawal of protection is evidence that Israel was disobedient.

Paul

Ben Masada · Post by **Ben Masada** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:06 am

Paul2 wrote:Ben,

-
Who inspired this?

Ex 33:20 And He said, "You will not be able to see My face, for man shall not see Me and live."
God ispired the writer to write thus, but He did not inspire you to understand the way you do.

Israel was promised protection, if they obeyed. They weren't protected and therefore they did not obey.
But only for a definite time. You do not understand our relationship with God. Our God can never renounce Israel, who has been betrothed to Him. Israel, God only chastises, but He usually takes us back after a short time, because His chastisement of Israel is like the chastisement of the jealous lover, longing to bring back the beloved to the fresh and pure joy of their first love.

You wrote:Evil per se does not exist. It needs to be made, and man does, not God.

But God says He creates it (Isaiah 45:7).
Sorry, but you do not understand the text. Let me repeat here: "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things."
Tell me, does God create darkness? No. Darkness does not exist. Darkness is a condition of no light. I you bring light into a dark room, the room will have light. Before it had nothing. Good, order, peace is the thing desired. The lack of these things is called evil, woe, and war. What God creates is good, order, and peace. Ecclesiastes 7:29 says that God created men upright but they sought out many inventions. It means that God creates good and man evil.

Israel is a metaphorical first born son and a metaphorical wife.
Good! You see? You are learning fast!

Ben:

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:29 am

Ben,

Ben Masada wrote:But only for a definite time. You do not understand our relationship with God. Our God can never renounce Israel, who has been betrothed to Him. Israel, God only chastises, but He usually takes us back after a short time, because His chastisement of Israel is like the chastisement of the jealous lover, longing to bring back the beloved to the fresh and pure joy of their first love.

I do not claim that God is finished with Israel. I believe he always takes you back.

Ro 11:15 For if their casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the taking back be if not life from among the dead?

Ben Masada wrote:Sorry, but you do not understand the text. Let me repeat here: "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things." Tell me, does God create darkness? No. Darkness does not exist. Darkness is a condition of no light. I you bring light into a dark room, the room will have light. Before it had nothing.

Darkness is a region lacking photon radiation. Regions lacking photon radiation exist. God creates them.

Ben Masada wrote:Good, order, peace is the thing desired. The lack of these things is called evil, woe, and war. What God creates is good, order, and peace.

Good, order, and peace existed before creation. Evil, woe, and war came into existence after creation. If God hadn't created, there would be no evil, woe, and war and therefore God's creative acts caused evil, woe, and war to come into existence.

Ben Masada wrote:Ecclesiastes 7:29 says that God created men upright but they sought out many inventions. It means that God creates good and man evil.

Once a man has turned to sin (a form of evil), he is no longer upright and he must have been an upright man with a weakness for sinning. Who created him weak?

Paul

Ben Masada · Post by **Ben Masada** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:06 pm

Paul2 wrote:Ben,

I do not claim that God is finished with Israel. I believe he always takes you back.
Amen. See? You know something.

Darkness is a region lacking photon radiation. Regions lacking photon radiation exist. God creates them.
Paul, what are you talking about, man? A region lacking photon radiation is called a vacuum. There is nothing in a vacuum. No one can create the nothing. The nothing is there to be filled up with creation.

Good, order, and peace existed before creation. Evil, woe, and war came into existence after creation. If God hadn't created, there would be no evil, woe, and war and therefore God's creative acts caused evil, woe, and war to come into existence.
Paul, evil, woe, and war are byproducts of creation. It means, those things don't come from the hands of a Creator but as a result of the things created.

Once a man has turned to sin (a form of evil), he is no longer upright and he must have been an upright man with a weakness for sinning. Who created him weak?
Thank you! You have confirmed my views about this issue. According to Ecclesiates 7:29, God did not create man with that weakness for sinning. He created man with freewill, and man used his freewill to create sin. Capicci?

Ben: [/b]

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:17 am

Ben,

Ben Masada wrote:Paul, what are you talking about, man? A region lacking photon radiation is called a vacuum. There is nothing in a vacuum. No one can create the nothing. The nothing is there to be filled up with creation.

Seal a room so no light can enter. Switch off the lights. You will find you are not in a vacuum.

Ben Masada wrote:Paul, evil, woe, and war are byproducts of creation. It means, those things don't come from the hands of a Creator but as a result of the things created.

God created Man. God is responsible for the outcome.

Ben Masada wrote:Thank you! You have confirmed my views about this issue. According to Ecclesiates 7:29, God did not create man with that weakness for sinning. He created man with freewill, and man used his freewill to create sin. Capicci?

An upright man, without a weakness for sinning, would always choose to do what is right. There could be no impulse to choose to sin.

Paul

Ben Masada · Post by **Ben Masada** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:55 am

Paul2 wrote:Ben,

God created Man. God is responsible for the outcome.

An upright man, without a weakness for sinning, would always choose to do what is right. There could be no impulse to choose to sin.

Paul

It doesn't help to try to blame God for our wrongdoings. It only serves to make God unfair and unjust, and of ourselves like the irrational animals without fireewill.

Ben:

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:35 am

Ben,

Ben Masada wrote:It doesn't help to try to blame God for our wrongdoings. It only serves to make God unfair and unjust, and of ourselves like the irrational animals without fireewill.

Free will does not exist. You do not have the power to cease permanently from sinning by exercising your will.

Paul

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:05 am

Ben Masada wrote:It doesn't help to try to blame God for our wrongdoings. It only serves to make God unfair and unjust, and of ourselves like the irrational animals without fireewill.

Paul2 wrote:Free will does not exist. You do not have the power to cease permanently from sinning by exercising your will.

Then why are humans condemned for doing that which they cannot prevent themselves from doing?