Is God guilty?

JoeB · Post by **JoeB** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:31 pm

Hello all, before I start, I'd like to state that I posted this topic in here because for the sake of argument it assumes the christian god exists.

Imagine you're God, walking down a calm motorway alongside a young girl who walks alone. A van pulls over and a few harsh men forcefully kidnap the girl, you ofcourse, do not intervene even though you know you're fully capable of intervening (heck, infinitely more capably than any man could). The girl is taken into the van and they drive off in a hurry, you're sitting next to the now tied up girl, again, doing nothing but observing. The men rape her, then brutally murder her and throw the body in some river or lake. All the while you were standing there, watching, doing nothing at all to save her.

Is the God in this story without guilt? In my opinion not, were he a man he would most certainly not get away with the 'but it was their free will to abduct, rape and murder her' argument. Why does god get away with this? He is far more capable at stopping the men than a simple mortal can ever be.
Heck, he could even send a few angels to scare the living crap out of those men without hurting them (it would even create a few believers, whoa! win-win!).

Judging from the bible God has intervened in peoples lives directly thus breaking their free will, for example he supposedly hardened the Pharaoh's heart to prevent IsraÃ«l from leaving Egypt, or the arguably forceful conversion of Paul on his way to Damascus, evidence god does not follow the human free will principle.

Question for debate:
Is God accountable for his inaction in stopping horrible things like above from happening?

InTheFlesh · Post by **InTheFlesh** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:44 am

I believe God is also responsible for the terror that comes upon the Earth!
Isn't this the same God who sent the waters to destroy all of mankind?

Confused · Post by **Confused** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:37 am

JoeB wrote:Hello all, before I start, I'd like to state that I posted this topic in here because for the sake of argument it assumes the christian god exists.

Imagine you're God, walking down a calm motorway alongside a young girl who walks alone. A van pulls over and a few harsh men forcefully kidnap the girl, you ofcourse, do not intervene even though you know you're fully capable of intervening (heck, infinitely more capably than any man could). The girl is taken into the van and they drive off in a hurry, you're sitting next to the now tied up girl, again, doing nothing but observing. The men rape her, then brutally murder her and throw the body in some river or lake. All the while you were standing there, watching, doing nothing at all to save her.

Is the God in this story without guilt? In my opinion not, were he a man he would most certainly not get away with the 'but it was their free will to abduct, rape and murder her' argument. Why does god get away with this? He is far more capable at stopping the men than a simple mortal can ever be.
Heck, he could even send a few angels to scare the living crap out of those men without hurting them (it would even create a few believers, whoa! win-win!).

Judging from the bible God has intervened in peoples lives directly thus breaking their free will, for example he supposedly hardened the Pharaoh's heart to prevent IsraÃ«l from leaving Egypt, or the arguably forceful conversion of Paul on his way to Damascus, evidence god does not follow the human free will principle.

Question for debate:
Is God accountable for his inaction in stopping horrible things like above from happening?

The age old debate of free will shall inevitably find its way into this thread I suspect. I struggle with this question often. But in the end, I still come to the same conclusion, I don't know. Let's say an ordinary man happens to see a mob hit in progress. He fears for his life and that of his family so not only does he not intervene, but he doesn't come forward as a witness to the brutal crime either. Is he guilty? I realize the standards are not equivalent here, with God being noted as all powerful, etc. etc. etc..... But I can't say that God (assuming His existence) is to fault for the actions of mankind. Is He suppose to be our protector? I don't recall that being a part of His job description (which brings up another thread which I will start in the C&A forum so as not to derail your thread).

InTheFlesh · Post by **InTheFlesh** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:02 am

Hi Confused,

Is He suppose to be our protector? I don't recall that being a part of His job description (which brings up another thread which I will start in the C&A forum so as not to derail your thread).

Yeah, that is another thread!

Pss.115
[9] O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
[10] O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
[11] Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

Prov.30
[5] Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

We do have free will.
If we say we don't,
we are saying that God
is staging this whole thing.
Just because he knows
the outcome of your decisions
doesn't mean he doesn't allow you to make them!

If we don't have free will, this conversation is also staged!
If this is staged, who is typing this right now?
Is it me? Or are my writings the actions of a higher being?
I'm typing this by my own free will...

Mr. Fess · Post by **Mr. Fess** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:18 pm

InTheFlesh wrote:Hi Confused,

Is He suppose to be our protector? I don't recall that being a part of His job description (which brings up another thread which I will start in the C&A forum so as not to derail your thread).

Yeah, that is another thread!

Pss.115
[9] O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
[10] O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
[11] Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

Prov.30
[5] Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

We do have free will.
If we say we don't,
we are saying that God
is staging this whole thing.
Just because he knows
the outcome of your decisions
doesn't mean he doesn't allow you to make them!

If we don't have free will, this conversation is also staged!
If this is staged, who is typing this right now?
Is it me? Or are my writings the actions of a higher being?
I'm typing this by my own free will...

Fantastic! Right on...you have to treat "free will" for what it is. It's an independent, voluntary choice/decision. Just because God may KNOW our choices, doesn't mean our choices are still not OURS. The only way free will would no longer be free will any longer is if God acted on that knowledge. In other words, free will loses its meaning only if God uses the knowledge of our choices and intercedes (interrupts, intervenes) and changes a decision that we would have otherwise chosen differently.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:32 pm

Mr. Fess wrote:
Fantastic! Right on...you have to treat "free will" for what it is. It's an independent, voluntary choice/decision. Just because God may KNOW our choices, doesn't mean our choices are still not OURS. The only way free will would no longer be free will any longer is if God acted on that knowledge. In other words, free will loses its meaning only if God uses the knowledge of our choices and intercedes (interrupts, intervenes) and changes a decision that we would have otherwise chosen differently.

Of course, that all goes by the way said, because, God is also the 'creator'.. and when the creator knows what you do before the act of creation, and is also has the attributes of 'all knowing' and 'all powerful', the concept of free will goes out the door. You are just predestined to think you have free will.

InTheFlesh · Post by **InTheFlesh** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:48 pm

goat wrote:
Mr. Fess wrote:
Fantastic! Right on...you have to treat "free will" for what it is. It's an independent, voluntary choice/decision. Just because God may KNOW our choices, doesn't mean our choices are still not OURS. The only way free will would no longer be free will any longer is if God acted on that knowledge. In other words, free will loses its meaning only if God uses the knowledge of our choices and intercedes (interrupts, intervenes) and changes a decision that we would have otherwise chosen differently.
Of course, that all goes by the way said, because, God is also the 'creator'.. and when the creator knows what you do before the act of creation, and is also has the attributes of 'all knowing' and 'all powerful', the concept of free will goes out the door. You are just predestined to think you have free will.

How so?
What does him seing the future
have to do with us making the choice?

God even sends lying spirits to persuade men,
but he will not make the decision for us!

JoeB · Post by **JoeB** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:18 pm

Given that God is supposedly all knowing he would know the future, and know all our actions and choices beforehand. I agree with InTheFlesh that that doesn't mean he makes our choices, (even if we would not have true free will, we still have the illusion of it).

Now, God doesn't choose for us, and in that way gives us that free will, but he is aware of and present at atrocities committed by people, without intervening. People can say he cannot intervene because we have free will, but at the same time why would his intervention stop our free will? Certainly policemen arresting a burglar is not stopping his will, it's stopping his actions.

Again, God has supposedly directly intervened like in the paragraph above, most obvious in the story of Abraham trying to sacrifice his son to God (yes I know it was a test of God, but still He intervened to stop Abraham's action).

InTheFlesh · Post by **InTheFlesh** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:31 pm

"Now, God doesn't choose for us, and in that way gives us that free will, but he is aware of and present at atrocities committed by people, without intervening. People can say he cannot intervene because we have free will, but at the same time why would his intervention stop our free will? Certainly policemen arresting a burglar is not stopping his will, it's stopping his actions."

According to biblical doctrine,
he is going to come and intervene
He will rid us of all darkness.
Thankfully, we are on his schedule.

Not only doesn't he stop evil
but he brings it.
Isn't this point summarized
in the flood of Noah story?
Isn't God guilty for killing all them who were not in the Ark?

Or was that a work of righteousness and purification?

JoeB · Post by **JoeB** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:47 pm

According to biblical doctrine,
he is going to come and intervene
He will rid us of all darkness.
Thankfully, we are on his schedule.

Well the bible states no specific date, in fact it very clearly states it is not known when He will come and intervene so to speak. For two thousand years people thought it would be just around the corner.

Not only doesn't he stop evil
but he brings it.

Yes, the passage of God claiming he created evil comes to mind, increasing the evidence of his guilt.

Isn't this point summarized
in the flood of Noah story?
Isn't God guilty for killing all them who were not in the Ark?

Yes, and for killing all the landanimals and birds who were not in the Ark, surely an omnipotent god could think of a better way?

Or was that a work of righteousness and purification?

*shudders*
I can image the Nazis proclaiming similar things if they had succeeded.

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