A suggestion for Christians

[OnceConvinced]

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven? The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture. However many of these people contradict each other. This is not at all helpful and I'm sure you agree that if one gets it wrong the ramifications are horrendous and many people, like I have, could spend their lives genuinely following what they believed to be Christ and correct doctrine, but find they were never true Christians to begin with because of their ignorance.

I'd like to suggest all the Christians get together in the Holy Huddle room to remedy this problem.

First of all, using holy spirit discernment, weed out all those who aren't true Christians and with those of you left, nut out together what it takes to consider yourself a true Christian.

You all being true Christians and having the holy spirit within you, I would invisage no problem with accomplishing this task. You can then come back to us as a group with your final list of conditions to consider one a true Christian and worthy of eternal life; worshiping God for all eternity, thus ensuring that we lost and sinful folk have accurate information that we can accept or reject Christ by.

Also while you are at it, for those who completely reject the bible, perhaps you could also come to a unified agreement on what Hell actually is. Is it eternal suffering, death by fire or simply the grave? I'm sure with the understanding given to you by the holy spirit, this should be an easy question for you true Christians to answer and would leave us with little doubt what we are in for if we continue on our evil and abominable ways.

If any other people have any topics they'd like sorted out perhaps they can post them on this thread? I'm sure that the holy spirit will be able to deal with them all quickly and efficiently. Maybe at last we can find out what the real truth is and what the bible really is saying to us?

I look forward to our Christian members here showing the sort of unity Paul so desired amongst the believers. I'm sure you will be eager to assist God in spreading the truth to the rest of us here and the many thousands who come into this site and read.

......................


So now having read this OP do you agree that with the Holy spirit, this venture should be easily undertaken?

If not, why not?

And if Christians cannot come to a consensus amongst themselves, using the holy spirit to gain understanding, how can any unbelievers take the bible or Christians seriously? ](*,)

[Mr. Fess]

Onceconvinced,
I totally see your frustration. We Christians should have it all together shouldn't we...? . Unfortunately we're not divine like the God in which we serve...darn it. Fortunately, Christianity has nothing to do with Christians having it all together and everything to do with Christ having it all together. However, I am sincere when I say that I understand your frustration. Think of it from our point of view...we're trying to get a message across that continues to be distorted by members of our own community.

Hi, Mr Fess and welcome. You seem like a civil and friendly Christian. First impression anyway.

I don't argue that Christianity is not about Christians getting it together, but I do believe that with the holy spirit this should be achievable. What do you think the holy spirit does? Do you see it as something that helps you gain a correct understanding of scripture? Do you see it as something that brings discernment? Do you think it guides you to say the things you need to say? Many genuine Christians do. I see it as all those things, even if that conflicts with what people like Tlong believe based on their understanding of scripture. If the HS can do these things, then I see no reason why my suggestion cannot be put into action and why Christians cannot "Get it together". However if I take off the God glasses I can cearly see that because Christians can't "Get it goether" that the HS really isn't all it's cracked up to be. What it shows me is that the HS is non existant and therefore most likely the Christian god too. And I'm sure it is the same for many other unbelievers here too.

I certainly agree with you that the Holy Spirit has the capability to discern what is the true from of Christianity, or whatever it is you're looking for within theology as a whole. My point is, regardless of whether or not the Holy Spirit has that capability, you're asking for Christians in particular to band together and use the Holy Spirit as a source to attain what is true in Christianity as a whole; and such a thing is rather unrealistic. For one thing, Christianity (in and of itself) has become such a broad term, tied into it, numerous different theological beliefs. However, the only "truth" within Christianity that all Christians agree on (or that the Bible agrees on) is who Jesus was and what he did; that Christ died on the cross for our sins and resurrected physically from the dead, and "whosever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life". The only so called "Christians" that would disagree with such a statement of truth would maybe be the "Jesus Seminar" and those who believe consistently with them. For their Christianity is not necessarily based on a faith in Christ, but more based on a decision to choose a religion within their respective culture.

I say all that to say this...if you're looking for the "true Christianity" in terms of correct practices within the church, you're not going to find it. For such things are, in a sense, unnecessary in attaining a "correct" Christian faith. The practices that each denomination differs on are actually irrelevant. They are man-made ordinances. In fact, Jesus himself abolished "religion". Take a look at the gospels and you will notice the debates between Jesus and the law-abiding Jews. The only practice that Jesus actually informed us to continue is "communion", in order for it to be a reminder of what he did for us.

[tlong]

If you would like to refute the authority of the bible, you need to go to another forum. This forum's rules say that we all agree the bible is authoratative.

I am not arguing about what the bible is saying. I am saying that your interpretation of it is not necessarily the correct one. Many people claim that the bible says something, but that is meaningless when these people have conflicting interpretations. Thus the reason for the thread. Get the Christians together and determine what the holy spirit is or isn't and come back to us. We'll go from there.

As I said your point is rediculous and you have not an understanding of the HS.

This is simply your opinion. Who can possibly claim to have understanding of the holy spirit? If you have understanding of what the HS, then you can surely convince other Christians that your understanding is correct. Can you do that?

Your claims of superiour understanding are meaningless. They are nothing but claims. You can point to scriptures to back up your claims, but another Christian with a conflicting veiwpoint can also point to scripture to back up their claims.

Amos has pointed you faulty reasoning out to you with scripture.

No he hasn't. All he has done is given his viewpoint on what the HS is and what it does. One persons viewpoint is not going to cut it. Let's see some unity amongst Christians on this issue. Is that too much to ask?

.You have hit the nail on the head. If Christians are being led by the Holy Spirit, they should have no problem whatsoever in ironing out all of their differences. There should be complete harmony if they are all being led by the Spirit of God. It is ridiculous to believe, for example, that God would teach one group that salvation is by faith alone, another group that salvation is by works alone, another group that it is through a combination of the two and still another group that it is through neither. If all of these groups are being led by God’s Spirit, is God confused or schizophrenic or what?

Your last sentence goes to the very heart of what Jesus prayed about in John 17:20-23. He prayed that all who would believe in Him through the apostles’ word would be one so that the world would believe the Father had sent Him. Your conclusions are well-reasoned and rock-solid.

What is interesting to me is the way “Spirit-filled Christians� deal (or rather don’t deal) with the contradictions that exist among all the denominations, either ignoring them or dismissing them as unimportant, making the claim that we can’t all understand the bible alike.

They believe they are indwelled by the Spirit of God because the Scriptures tell them so. (Nobody would even know there were such a thing as the Holy Spirit were it not for what the Scriptures reveal about Him.) Then they refuse to believe what the Scriptures say about the Scriptures:
• That they contain all truth (John 16:13, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, John 17:17)
• That we can understand them if we will study them (John 8:32, Ephesians 3:3-4, Ephesians 5:17, 2 Timothy 2:15, 1 Timothy 4:13, 16,)
• That in them are revealed all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3)
• That they make us wise for salvation and are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness that we may be complete thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17)
• That we are not all entitled to our own interpretation of them, but that we must instead figure out what God intended for them to say to us (2 Peter 3:16, 2 John 9-11, 1 Timothy 1:3, 1 Timothy 4:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:1-4, 1 Timothy 6:20-21, 1 John 4:1, 2 Peter 2:1-2, Matthew 7:15, Acts 20:28-31)
To me, this is a huge inconsistency.

I believe there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of the indwelling of the Spirit of God in the Christian. Obviously, the bible teaches we are indwelled by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:11). We are also taught that God the Father indwells us (1 John 4:15) and that Jesus indwells us (John 14:20). If they dwell in us in a literal sense, are we not then the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9)? If we literally have the persons of the Father, Son and Spirit dwelling in us, how could we ever sin (1 John 1:5-10)? How could we ever disagree (1 Corinthians 1:10)? Why would we be instructed to study (2 Timothy 2:15) or to beware lest we have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God (Hebrews 3:12)?

We are taught in Ephesians 3:17 that Christ doesn’t literally dwell in us personally, but that He dwells in our hearts by faith. I believe the same is true of God the Father and of His Spirit.

Notice Ephesians 5:18-19 and Colossians 3:16, which are parallel passages. In Ephesians we are told to “be filled with the Spirit.� How do we fulfill that command? Paul explains it in Colossians where he says, “let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom.� As we study God’s word and let it direct our lives, we are filled with the Spirit, we are led by the Spirit, and the Father and Son dwell in us by faith.


Here you go. One more time. The only thing we can know about the HS is what was revealed to us by God. I have pated Amos' comments so hopefully you will read them this time. He has done a very good job showing how the HS works now. As he has pointed out, the HS is't going indwell us all and give us all some understanding. It works through the word. You keep on with your inaccurate assumption that we should all be indwelled. Obviously you have no working knowledge of the scriptures about the working of the HS. Just because you refuse to accept the truth, from the scriptures, does not change it. Prove that the HS should indwell us and give us some profound knowledge . Can you? Please back up your 'opinion' with at least something. Your OP is flawed due to your lack of scriptural knowledge, but do not feel bad, because obviously, as you have already pointed out, a lot of people do not have a scriptural knowledge of the HS.

[Mere_Christian]

One of the topics we often discuss here is what makes a true Christian and what assures salvation and thus eternal life in Heaven? The big problem is we get many different people coming through here claiming to have the truth and correct understanding of scripture. However many of these people contradict each other. This is not at all helpful and I'm sure you agree that if one gets it wrong the ramifications are horrendous and many people, like I have, could spend their lives genuinely following what they believed to be Christ and correct doctrine, but find they were never true Christians to begin with because of their ignorance.

I'd like to suggest all the Christians get together in the Holy Huddle room to remedy this problem.

First of all, using holy spirit discernment, weed out all those who aren't true Christians and with those of you left, nut out together what it takes to consider yourself a true Christian.

You all being true Christians and having the holy spirit within you, I would invisage no problem with accomplishing this task. You can then come back to us as a group with your final list of conditions to consider one a true Christian and worthy of eternal life; worshiping God for all eternity, thus ensuring that we lost and sinful folk have accurate information that we can accept or reject Christ by.

Also while you are at it, for those who completely reject the bible, perhaps you could also come to a unified agreement on what Hell actually is. Is it eternal suffering, death by fire or simply the grave? I'm sure with the understanding given to you by the holy spirit, this should be an easy question for you true Christians to answer and would leave us with little doubt what we are in for if we continue on our evil and abominable ways.

If any other people have any topics they'd like sorted out perhaps they can post them on this thread? I'm sure that the holy spirit will be able to deal with them all quickly and efficiently. Maybe at last we can find out what the real truth is and what the bible really is saying to us?

I look forward to our Christian members here showing the sort of unity Paul so desired amongst the believers. I'm sure you will be eager to assist God in spreading the truth to the rest of us here and the many thousands who come into this site and read.

......................


So now having read this OP do you agree that with the Holy spirit, this venture should be easily undertaken?

If not, why not?

And if Christians cannot come to a consensus amongst themselves, using the holy spirit to gain understanding, how can any unbelievers take the bible or Christians seriously? ](*,)

Here's what Jesus taught on this subject:

Matthew 13:

24Jesus told them another parable:

"The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field?

Where then did the weeds come from?'

28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.


"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest.

At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

////

Jesus, one tough guy.

[InTheFlesh]

OnceConvinced wrote:
And when will this day of unity be.

catalyst wrote:
What your input as to "eternal life" has to do with the OP and christians coming together with a unified message as to their belief, I don't know.

My input of eternal life was in reply
to the question asked by OnceConvinced.
The day of unity will be the start of eternal life.
A perfect day.
A day with no darkness.
And no need for the sun, the lamb will be the light...

[catalyst]

OnceConvinced wrote:
And when will this day of unity be.

catalyst wrote:
What your input as to "eternal life" has to do with the OP and christians coming together with a unified message as to their belief, I don't know.

My input of eternal life was in reply
to the question asked by OnceConvinced.
The day of unity will be the start of eternal life.
A perfect day.
A day with no darkness.
And no need for the sun, the lamb will be the light...

So until the alleged "rapture", christians of differing denominations or even of the same will continue to argue and fight like banshee's amongst eachother, as to who's interpretation of "X" verse is the right one and the "true christians? I wonder if in your (collective) god belief, bible jesus see's that NONE have you have understood and therefore come "judgement", your(individual) interpretations are actually worthless IN your "gods" eyes?
Judgement IS judgement accordingly, remember.

I have often wondered if NOT believing in the written about, is to actually "GET" the message within.

It would be ironic, but at least to me, hardly surprising.

[InTheFlesh]

OnceConvinced wrote:
And when will this day of unity be.

catalyst wrote:
What your input as to "eternal life" has to do with the OP and christians coming together with a unified message as to their belief, I don't know.

My input of eternal life was in reply
to the question asked by OnceConvinced.
The day of unity will be the start of eternal life.
A perfect day.
A day with no darkness.
And no need for the sun, the lamb will be the light...

So until the alleged "rapture", christians of differing denominations or even of the same will continue to argue and fight like banshee's amongst eachother, as to who's interpretation of "X" verse is the right one and the "true christians? I wonder if in your (collective) god belief, bible jesus see's that NONE have you have understood and therefore come "judgement", your(individual) interpretations are actually worthless IN your "gods" eyes?
Judgement IS judgement accordingly, remember.

I have often wondered if NOT believing in the written about, is to actually "GET" the message within.

It would be ironic, but at least to me, hardly surprising.

And you say that I have personal interpretations?
How would you support your claim with the written word itself?
You formed your own interpretation that one should not believe the Word of God is true,
but how would you go about supporting that with doctrine though?

The day of unity
is the resurrection
not the rapture.
It will begin with the rising of the sun!

How do you know that there is not a group of believers out there that collectively they agree?
Do you claim to know what everyone believes?
If not, how do you know agreement doesn't exist to people with faith?

And it's not only Christians debating each other.
Doesn't everyone search their inner selves?
Even those that are not Christians,
debate constantly about spiritual matters.
So even if Christianity didn't exist,
men would constantly debate over what is truth!

Since none of us were in the beginning,
the search for truth will never end!
Believer in God or not!!!

[catalyst]

ITF,

And you say that I have personal interpretations?
How would you support your claim with the written word itself?

Everyone's interpretation of religious texts, whether that of christianity or other religions or belief systems, are truly their own. One would assume though that given the key premise OF christianity, being the resurrection, allegedly happening back some near 2000 years ago, even those supposedly eye-witness to it, would have agreed completely. Even THEY didn't.

You formed your own interpretation that one should not believe the Word of God is true, but how would you go about supporting that with doctrine though?

Jer, Deut, Micah, Ezek, Isa,...etc... Isaiah is a perfect example actually. Christianity has made arduous claims that in Isa 7, it MUST be NT jesus being referred to. MANY MANY a Jew get to differ. The christians "know" the read better than the originators of the writings though, right?

The day of unity
is the resurrection
not the rapture.
It will begin with the rising of the sun!

The ressurection allegedly happened near 2000 years ago though right and historical evidence has shown, there has been no unity.

Unless you dwell in a darkened room ITF, the sun rises daily and still no closer to unity come 2009.

How do you know that there is not a group of believers out there that collectively they agree?

Well considering there are some 30000+ denominations of xianity alone, it is apparent that xianity itself is not a unit of solidarity and considering it is allegedly a belief in a SINGLE premise, that is creepy in itself.

Do you claim to know what everyone believes?

Yes, something even if a tad different to everyone else.

If not, how do you know agreement doesn't exist to people with faith?

If two people of "faith" are at loggerheads as to belief (which is obvious just from this board) then it is apparent that agreement is not there.

And it's not only Christians debating each other

I never said it was, but it seems strange that those claiming a sole belief system, actually do. Thank you for admitting that christians DO debate eachother, specifically I have noticed to define a "true" vs "not true" christian. History as shown death has resulted in these same god belief squabbles. ..How "special"

Doesn't everyone search their inner selves?

One would hope ITF, but I fail to see what inner teachings are to be gleened from an external book.

Even those that are not Christians,
debate constantly about spiritual matters.

The concept of spirituality is not synonyms to christianity.

So even if Christianity didn't exist,
men would constantly debate over what is truth!

Perhaps, but I would guess without so much judgement involved.

Since none of us were in the beginning,

Nor were the writers of the book you obviously deem as your "truth".

the search for truth will never end!

I don't need to search for my personal life truths as they are with me daily. I can honestly say I don't "search" for some assumed "absolute truth" anymore.

Believer in God or not!!

So even though you believe, you reckon you are STILL searching for "truth"?

OK. Keep looking and I hope one day you find it, ITF.

[tlong]

OnceConvinced wrote:
And when will this day of unity be.

catalyst wrote:
What your input as to "eternal life" has to do with the OP and christians coming together with a unified message as to their belief, I don't know.

My input of eternal life was in reply
to the question asked by OnceConvinced.
The day of unity will be the start of eternal life.
A perfect day.
A day with no darkness.
And no need for the sun, the lamb will be the light...

So until the alleged "rapture", christians of differing denominations or even of the same will continue to argue and fight like banshee's amongst eachother, as to who's interpretation of "X" verse is the right one and the "true christians? I wonder if in your (collective) god belief, bible jesus see's that NONE have you have understood and therefore come "judgement", your(individual) interpretations are actually worthless IN your "gods" eyes?
Judgement IS judgement accordingly, remember.

I have often wondered if NOT believing in the written about, is to actually "GET" the message within.

It would be ironic, but at least to me, hardly surprising.

Please explain to me what the rapture is. And also show me the scripture where the word rapture is used. And I believe people of science argue just as much as every body else don't they? Or is that just what christians do?
As far as judgement goes, it will start with the ones in the body of Christ.

[catalyst]

Please explain to me what the rapture is. And also show me the scripture where the word rapture is used.

You could type in "Rapture" and the bible into google and see for yourself, but here is a few examples for you as to what it allegedly is:

the coming of Christ for His church. This event is imminent with no prophecies unfulfilled that would delay His coming. Traditionally we have called this event “The Rapture� although this word does not appear in most translations of the Bible. The word rapture comes from the Latin, Rapare, which means to "take away" or "snatch out." The word with the meaning of rapture in the Bible is the Greek word harpozo. This Greek word harpozo is literally translated “caught up� and has the following meanings: to carry off by force or to rescue from the danger of destruction.

^-- http://faithcycleministry.org/HalWarren ... arpozo.php

and:

What is the rapture?
The Rapture is a future event expected by many -- perhaps most -- born-again Protestants. They are certain that they, alone, will engage in a mass migration in the near future. They believe that those born-again Christians who have died will have their bodies reconstituted and will ascend through the air, and meet Jesus Christ in the sky. This will be followed by a second mass migration of the born-again who are currently alive.

The word "Rapture" comes from the Latin word "Rapare" which means to take away or to snatch out. This would be a remarkable event. As it is described in Evangelical literature, pilots would disappear from planes, truck drivers from their trucks; people from automobiles, etc. Some born-again Christians believe that a family will be eating dinner, when some of the members will float upwards from their seats, pass through the roof and keep rising through the air towards Jesus.

An associated event is Christ's imminent return (also known as the "second coming" and "parousia"). This has been expected by many Christians for almost 2 millennia. It was described by the Greek word "parousia" (coming, arrival, presence) during the 1st century CE. Justin Martyr introduced the term "second coming" in the 2nd century.

Ever since Christ's death, many Christians have been expecting the second coming in their immediate future. Most Fundamentalist and other conservative Christians believe that The Rapture will occur when Christ first returns towards earth.

^-- http://www.religioustolerance.org/rapture1.htm

The verses usually used to "validate" the concept are 1 Thessalonians 4:13, 1 Corinthians 15:51, Revelations, Hebrews..etc... and others.

And I believe people of science argue just as much as every body else don't they?

Not to a point of bumping someone off who doesn't agree with their personal "spin". Can you cite any incidents tlong, where one group of scientists have slaughtered another group of scientists because there theories as to, for instance... "subatomic particles"**.. didn't match? Laboratory Inquisitions perhaps?

** example purposes only.

Or is that just what christians do?

Oh no and I never claimed that. One would think though that those presumably working within a 'faith" of love and compassion for fellow man, could at least mesh in unity.

As far as judgement goes, it will start with the ones in the body of Christ

Yes so it is claimed....and?

[InTheFlesh]

ITF,

And you say that I have personal interpretations?
How would you support your claim with the written word itself?

Everyone's interpretation of religious texts, whether that of christianity or other religions or belief systems, are truly their own. One would assume though that given the key premise OF christianity, being the resurrection, allegedly happening back some near 2000 years ago, even those supposedly eye-witness to it, would have agreed completely. Even THEY didn't.

You formed your own interpretation that one should not believe the Word of God is true, but how would you go about supporting that with doctrine though?

Jer, Deut, Micah, Ezek, Isa,...etc... Isaiah is a perfect example actually. Christianity has made arduous claims that in Isa 7, it MUST be NT jesus being referred to. MANY MANY a Jew get to differ. The christians "know" the read better than the originators of the writings though, right?

The day of unity
is the resurrection
not the rapture.
It will begin with the rising of the sun!

The ressurection allegedly happened near 2000 years ago though right and historical evidence has shown, there has been no unity.

Unless you dwell in a darkened room ITF, the sun rises daily and still no closer to unity come 2009.

How do you know that there is not a group of believers out there that collectively they agree?

Well considering there are some 30000+ denominations of xianity alone, it is apparent that xianity itself is not a unit of solidarity and considering it is allegedly a belief in a SINGLE premise, that is creepy in itself.

Do you claim to know what everyone believes?

Yes, something even if a tad different to everyone else.

If not, how do you know agreement doesn't exist to people with faith?

If two people of "faith" are at loggerheads as to belief (which is obvious just from this board) then it is apparent that agreement is not there.

And it's not only Christians debating each other

I never said it was, but it seems strange that those claiming a sole belief system, actually do. Thank you for admitting that christians DO debate eachother, specifically I have noticed to define a "true" vs "not true" christian. History as shown death has resulted in these same god belief squabbles. ..How "special"

Doesn't everyone search their inner selves?

One would hope ITF, but I fail to see what inner teachings are to be gleened from an external book.

Even those that are not Christians,
debate constantly about spiritual matters.

The concept of spirituality is not synonyms to christianity.

So even if Christianity didn't exist,
men would constantly debate over what is truth!

Perhaps, but I would guess without so much judgement involved.

Since none of us were in the beginning,

Nor were the writers of the book you obviously deem as your "truth".

the search for truth will never end!

I don't need to search for my personal life truths as they are with me daily. I can honestly say I don't "search" for some assumed "absolute truth" anymore.

Believer in God or not!!

So even though you believe, you reckon you are STILL searching for "truth"?

OK. Keep looking and I hope one day you find it, ITF.

In this sub-forum,
I debate doctrine.
So if you are not debating doctrine,
I have nothing to add to your reply.

I'm not interested in your personal opinion
about my beliefs.
I get plenty of that in the Christianity and Apologetics forum!