Satan and the End Times

[Ooberman]

OK, I think I understand most of Xp'n theology, but I can't wrap my head around the Satan/End Times part.

1. Satan is Evil
2. Jesus is the Prince of Peace
3. World peace will be brought by Satan
4. and this is bad because it leads to Judgment Day
5. which is Good because there is a Godly massacre
6. so "Real" Xp'n's can go to Heaven
7. Huh?


Also, it seems every world leader has been declared the Anti-Christ at one point. Bush was, now Obama - and this is bad? Why? Because it will bring a millennia of Peace to the world, and hasten the End Times?

Or, is it bad, and we DON'T want to get to the End Times...

Honestly, I can't figure this out at all.

Satan, bad - but brings Peace
Jesus, good - but brings destruction

or, was Jesus really Satan?

And why do people claim we are in the final days? There hasn't been peace on Earth - EVER.

Are we supposed to help bring Peace to the World or not? Are we supposed to fight Satan, or help him? Are we supposed to turn the other cheek and love our neighbor - thus bringing peace, or not?

Help!

[msmcneal]

I've got to admit, while I've thought long and hard on these topics, they're always beyond my grasp. Of course, I think this comes from the many contradictions of Christianity. And it's part of the reason I left. You simply cannot make any logical sense out of it. But I'm interested to see if any Christian can logically give a reasonable answer to this.

[Amos]

OK, I think I understand most of Xp'n theology, but I can't wrap my head around the Satan/End Times part.

1. Satan is Evil
2. Jesus is the Prince of Peace
3. World peace will be brought by Satan
4. and this is bad because it leads to Judgment Day
5. which is Good because there is a Godly massacre
6. so "Real" Xp'n's can go to Heaven
7. Huh?


Also, it seems every world leader has been declared the Anti-Christ at one point. Bush was, now Obama - and this is bad? Why? Because it will bring a millennia of Peace to the world, and hasten the End Times?

Or, is it bad, and we DON'T want to get to the End Times...

Honestly, I can't figure this out at all.

Satan, bad - but brings Peace
Jesus, good - but brings destruction

or, was Jesus really Satan?

And why do people claim we are in the final days? There hasn't been peace on Earth - EVER.

Are we supposed to help bring Peace to the World or not? Are we supposed to fight Satan, or help him? Are we supposed to turn the other cheek and love our neighbor - thus bringing peace, or not?

Help!

Your cognitive dissonance is not caused by what the bible teaches. It is caused by false doctrines concocted by forcing literal meanings on figurative language found in The Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel and other prophetic passages like Matthew 24.

We do, indeed, live in the "last days." Peter said so in Acts 2:17, where he said that things Joel had prophesied would take place in the last days were then happening. Last days refers to the last dispensation of time, the Christian age (Hebrews 1:1-4).

Jesus is not coming back to rule an earthly kingom for a literal 1000 year period. He has already been raised up to sit on the throne of David, having been exalted to the right hand of God where he rules as Lord, Christ and King over his spiritual kingdom, the church. (Acts 2:30-36, John 18:36, Luke 17:20-21, Matthew 16:18-19, 1 Timothy 6:15). Jesus told those of His day that there were some then living who would not taste death until they saw the kingdom of God present with power (Mark 9:1). We become citizens of that kingdom when we obey the gospel (Acts 2:37-47, Colossians 1:13).

Prior to Jesus' day, the kingdom was spoken of as being in the future (Daniel 2:44). When Jesus was here, they were told the kingdom was at hand (Matthew 3:1-2, 4:17). After the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, when Jesus was proclaimed to be sitting at the right hand of God on the throne of David (figurative throne representing his rule and authority), the kingdom was referred to as being in existence with Christians as its citizens (Colossians 1:13, Revelation 1:9).

When Jesus comes back the dead will be raised, all who have ever lived will be judged according to their works, the righteous will inherit eternal life and the wicked will be sent away into everlasting punishment. (John 14:1-3, John 5:28-29, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 25:31-46). The earth and everything in it will be destroyed (2 Peter 3:10).

[Ooberman]

OK, I think I understand most of Xp'n theology, but I can't wrap my head around the Satan/End Times part.

1. Satan is Evil
2. Jesus is the Prince of Peace
3. World peace will be brought by Satan
4. and this is bad because it leads to Judgment Day
5. which is Good because there is a Godly massacre
6. so "Real" Xp'n's can go to Heaven
7. Huh?


Also, it seems every world leader has been declared the Anti-Christ at one point. Bush was, now Obama - and this is bad? Why? Because it will bring a millennia of Peace to the world, and hasten the End Times?

Or, is it bad, and we DON'T want to get to the End Times...

Honestly, I can't figure this out at all.

Satan, bad - but brings Peace
Jesus, good - but brings destruction

or, was Jesus really Satan?

And why do people claim we are in the final days? There hasn't been peace on Earth - EVER.

Are we supposed to help bring Peace to the World or not? Are we supposed to fight Satan, or help him? Are we supposed to turn the other cheek and love our neighbor - thus bringing peace, or not?

Help!

Your cognitive dissonance is not caused by what the bible teaches. It is caused by false doctrines concocted by forcing literal meanings on figurative language found in The Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel and other prophetic passages like Matthew 24.

We do, indeed, live in the "last days." Peter said so in Acts 2:17, where he said that things Joel had prophesied would take place in the last days were then happening. Last days refers to the last dispensation of time, the Christian age (Hebrews 1:1-4).

Jesus is not coming back to rule an earthly kingom for a literal 1000 year period. He has already been raised up to sit on the throne of David, having been exalted to the right hand of God where he rules as Lord, Christ and King over his spiritual kingdom, the church. (Acts 2:30-36, John 18:36, Luke 17:20-21, Matthew 16:18-19, 1 Timothy 6:15). Jesus told those of His day that there were some then living who would not taste death until they saw the kingdom of God present with power (Mark 9:1). We become citizens of that kingdom when we obey the gospel (Acts 2:37-47, Colossians 1:13).

Prior to Jesus' day, the kingdom was spoken of as being in the future (Daniel 2:44). When Jesus was here, they were told the kingdom was at hand (Matthew 3:1-2, 4:17). After the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, when Jesus was proclaimed to be sitting at the right hand of God on the throne of David (figurative throne representing his rule and authority), the kingdom was referred to as being in existence with Christians as its citizens (Colossians 1:13, Revelation 1:9).

When Jesus comes back the dead will be raised, all who have ever lived will be judged according to their works, the righteous will inherit eternal life and the wicked will be sent away into everlasting punishment. (John 14:1-3, John 5:28-29, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 25:31-46). The earth and everything in it will be destroyed (2 Peter 3:10).

Thanks.

Can I ask which Bible you use and which denomination you most closely agree with?

[msmcneal]

Amos, I've been reading your answers to many of these threads, and I have to admit, I'm intrigued. I've seen these arguments before. I'm curious, like Ooberman, to know which denomination you belong to. Because your views, they were the same views I had as an Eastern Orthodox Christian. If you're not Orthodox, or even Catholic, you share many of the same views as they do. I know High church Anglicans and Lutherans believe many of the same things as well. But I'm interested to know more.

[Amos]

Thanks.

Can I ask which Bible you use and which denomination you most closely agree with?

Amos, I've been reading your answers to many of these threads, and I have to admit, I'm intrigued. I've seen these arguments before. I'm curious, like Ooberman, to know which denomination you belong to. Because your views, they were the same views I had as an Eastern Orthodox Christian. If you're not Orthodox, or even Catholic, you share many of the same views as they do. I know High church Anglicans and Lutherans believe many of the same things as well. But I'm interested to know more.

I prefer the New King James Version of the Bible, but there are other good versions.

As for which denomination I most closely agree with, I reject them all as sinful innovations of man (1 Corinthians 1:10-3:7, John 17:20-23). I believe that when someone hears, believes and obeys the gospel of Christ, God adds them to the church which Jesus built (Romans 1:16-17, Romans 10:13-17, Acts 2:37-47, Matthew 16:18-19). When we believe and practice what they believed and practiced in the first century, we are what they were - Christians (Genesis 1:11-12, Luke 8:5-15, John 8:31, Acts 11:26).

I didn't know I shared beliefs with Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. I know I reject their unscriptural heirarchies. Jesus is the head of the church universal (Ephesians 1:22-23, Colossians 1:18). Each local congregation was autonomous. Elders were appointed in every church to shepherd the flock of God among them (Acts 14:23, 1 Timothy 3:1-7, 1 Peter 5:2). I find no example of elders taking control of those not among them. Deacons served under the elders (Acts 6:1-6, 1 Timothy 3:8-13). Ephesians 4:11 tells us some were given to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. There are no more apostles or prophets (Acts 1:15-22, Acts 8:14-18). Pastors are elders. That leaves the office of preacher and teacher for the church today. There is no authority for any other office, including that of Pope.

I see no evidence of a clergy-laity distinction in the New Testament. All Christians are members of the royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:5-10). All the titles, honor, and costumes associated with the clergy are condemned by Jesus (Matthew 23:5-11).

I have lots and lots of doctrinal issues with the Catholic Church. I'm not as familiar with the Eastern Orthodox Church, but I know I can't read about an Eastern Orthodox Church in the New Testament.

I believe Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth, and that that authority is revealed to us in the Scriptures, which give us all things that pertain to life and godliness and thoroughly equip us for every good work (Matthew 28:18, 2 Peter 1:3, 2 Timothy 3:15-17).

[Ooberman]

It must be a daunting task to discover what Xpn's in the 1st Century believed. There were so many different 'so-called' Xpn groups that existed, based on the words of Jesus. And I believe the "Bible" wasn't even developed by then, so quoting John (who may have written his work years into the 2nd Century) must be exciting.

I think you have a good, solid belief system, there. Which is amazing since is seems to rely on subjective interpretation.

Well, I appreciate your post. No offense, but I'll have to bounce this off a few other Xpn's to see if you are legit.

It's shocking, but I think you have just condemned 90% of all Xpn's and Xpn churches. But then, I think most of us know that a majority of people really don't give a damn about this stuff and go to church/or call themselves Xpn because of the communal expectations.

Anyhow, I'd like to mull over your position a little more.

Thanks again.

[Amos]

It must be a daunting task to discover what Xpn's in the 1st Century believed. There were so many different 'so-called' Xpn groups that existed, based on the words of Jesus. And I believe the "Bible" wasn't even developed by then, so quoting John (who may have written his work years into the 2nd Century) must be exciting.

Why is it such a daunting task to discover what Christians in the first century believed? The teaching of the apostles and prophets was uniform from place to place, and first century Christians were taught to reject doctrines contrary to those of the apostles (1 Corinthians 4:17, Galatians 1:6-9). No, they didn’t have a bible like we do today, but the letters were widely circulated, and they were making lists of the authoritative ones in the second century that are almost exactly what we have today. And there is good evidence that the disputed books (2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, James, Hebrews, Revelation) are where they need to be.

I think you have a good, solid belief system, there. Which is amazing since is seems to rely on subjective interpretation.

I believe the Scriptures contain objective truth which we can know for certain through study (John 17:17, John 8:32, 2 Timothy 2:15, 1 Timothy 4:13, 16, Ephesians 3:3-4). If I am getting it wrong, you would be my friend to show me how (James 5:19-20).

Well, I appreciate your post. No offense, but I'll have to bounce this off a few other Xpn's to see if you are legit.

I am not offended that you want to “bounce this off a few other Xpn’s� (John 3:21). But what they have to say has no bearing on whether or not I am “legit.� God will make that determination one of these days (2 Corinthians 5:9-10). I believe you can determine on your own whether or not I am legit (Acts 17:11).

It's shocking, but I think you have just condemned 90% of all Xpn's and Xpn churches. But then, I think most of us know that a majority of people really don't give a damn about this stuff and go to church/or call themselves Xpn because of the communal expectations.

I would disagree with your assessment that I have condemned anybody. I don’t have the authority to do that (John 5:22, 27). My job is to figure out what God’s word teaches and do it (John 12:48, Ephesians 5:17, Luke 6:46, Romans 6:16-18). But Jesus did say that the gate was narrow that leads to life and few will find it (Matthew 7:13-14). He also said there will be many religious folks who will be lost in the day of judgment (Matthew 7:21-27).

Anyhow, I'd like to mull over your position a little more.

Thanks again.

My pleasure (1 Peter 3:15).

[Ooberman]

Amos, thanks again.

as to my comment of the difficulty of discerning what early Xpn's believed:

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (New International Version)

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

this would have been written in the first century and is telling Timothy that what he learned as a child (the scripture Timothy used) was "god-breathed".

This would have been the OT (exclusively, and no NT works), and specifically, in the case of Timothy, the Greek Septuagint.

This means that the Apocrypha (according to the KJV) of both the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles (Old Testament Deuterocanonicals) would be included as "god-breathed" text.

http://vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2008/ ... testament/


I'm not saying you believe these are untrue or are problematic for you, personally, I just can appreciate it must be difficult to determine what early Xpn's believed, especially considering there's been 2000 years of human intervention to manipulate texts, create alternate hermeneutics, etc.

[Amos]

Amos, thanks again.

as to my comment of the difficulty of discerning what early Xpn's believed:

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (New International Version)

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

this would have been written in the first century and is telling Timothy that what he learned as a child (the scripture Timothy used) was "god-breathed".

This would have been the OT (exclusively, and no NT works), and specifically, in the case of Timothy, the Greek Septuagint.

This means that the Apocrypha (according to the KJV) of both the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles (Old Testament Deuterocanonicals) would be included as "god-breathed" text.

http://vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2008/ ... testament/


I'm not saying you believe these are untrue or are problematic for you, personally, I just can appreciate it must be difficult to determine what early Xpn's believed, especially considering there's been 2000 years of human intervention to manipulate texts, create alternate hermeneutics, etc.

Yes, Paul is referring to the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Timothy 3:15-17. And yes, indeed, the OT is able to make us wise for salvation through faith in Christ, not because it tells us how to be saved, but because it leads us to Christ (Galatians 3:19-29). Paul used the OT Scriptures to show Jews that Jesus was the Christ, the King they had been waiting for, and that it was necessary for Him to suffer and be raised from the dead (Acts 17:1-4). I have never read the Deuterocanonicals, but I have seen enough in the 39 books in my OT to be satisfied that Jesus is the one the prophets were talking about.

But Paul’s writings were considered Scripture, too, as Peter implies in 2 Peter 3:15-16:

and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

In addition, Paul quotes from Luke 10:7 and calls it Scripture in 1 Timothy 5:18.

The apostles claimed to be teaching the word of God, and if you believe the accounts in the NT, performed miracles to prove it (1 Corinthians 14:37, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 2:16 compared with John 12:48, 2 Peter 3:1-2, Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:1-4). The Bible claims that God’s word abides forever (1 Peter 1:22-26, Matthew 24:35). If this claim is false, then my faith is baseless (Romans 10:17). However, I am convinced by the study I’ve done that God has, through His providence, preserved His word for us. I find the evidence compelling. Others do not. We each must weigh the evidence and come to our own conclusions.