The Holy Trinity and Holy Tetrad

[melodious]

It seems that most Christians do not even know the correct formula of the original Trinity doctrine. So I'm dedicating a thread for debate on the subject. I shall give my version and then leave it open for debate and/or comments.

In my opinion, this is the correct formula according to the original Christian teaching that was adopted from the ancient Osirian religion of Egypt: It is the Transcendent, or Bornless/Nameless, Father and the Holy (Mother) Spirit (emanation of the Father) who give birth to the Eternal Christ, which in turn splits again into the Son (spirit) and Daughter (soul/psyche) to create what is known in Qabala and Gnosticism as the Holy Tetrad.

I will add to this a bit of esoteric contemplation:

As much as we are all a separate individual psyche, we are also, in essence, truly inseparable from the source of the One-consciousness-being, so too is this so with the Holy Trinity and Holy Tetrad.

This then leads to the Mystery of the Bridal Chamber where the Daughter (soul/psyche) is married to the Son (spirit) to create the Christos (perfect offspring of the Human One or Adam) who brings forth the Sethian generation. This is a spiritual generation that is ever-coming in humanity and connotes the Second coming of Christ, hence the first Christ came as the "son of man" or Adam (this is why 'The Great Seth' is a gnostic title of the Christos) and the second Christ will be called the son of Seth, which implies a kind of alien intelligence present in humankind.

This is alluding to the ultimate evolution of consciousness where one day we shall be looked upon as very primitive for having to communicate the way we do and always having to speak to be heard (this does not mean necessarily our voices will be no longer, just that we wont have to use them as much). Our knowledge and/or experience of clairvoyance and other such psychic phenomena is only the tip of the iceberg for the evolution of consciousness. Anything that inhibits this evolution in humanity would be considered anti-Christos, or to put it plainly, anti-evolution and anti-enlightenment of humanity. The involution (anti-Christ) and evolution (Christ) of consciousness on a collective human level is constantly happening according to the teachings of Qabala.

Question for debate: What is the correct formula of the Trinity?

[Lorens]

Question for debate: What is the correct formula of the Trinity?

Whatever turns your crank. It is like asking whether Captain Hook had his left hand or his right. How can there be a correct answer?

Further...

More 'clear' and 'rational' explanation of the same problem was presented in all truth through another spiritual giant, namely Emanuel Swedenborg, in whose True Christian Religion 166-169 we read:

THOSE THREE, FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT, ARE THE THREE ESSENTIALS OF A SINGLE GOD, WHICH MAKE ONE AS SOUL, BODY AND ACTIVITY DO WITH A PERSON.

Each object has general essentials and particular essentials; and the two together make up a single essence. A person's general essentials are his soul, body and activity. These make up a single essence, as can be seen from the fact that one arises from the next, and exists on account of the next, in an unbroken chain. Every person starts from the soul, which is the true essence of the seed. This not only initiates but also produces one after the other the bodily structures; and later on it initiates the products of the soul and the body working together, what are called its activities. Since then one is produced by the next and by its being implanted and attached, it is plain that these three belong to a single essence. This is why they are called the three essentials.

Everyone acknowledges that those three essentials, namely, soul, body and activity, were and are in the Lord God the Saviour. No one but Antichrist can deny that His soul was from Jehovah His Father; for in the Word, in both testaments, He is called the Son of Jehovah, the Son of the Most High God, the Only-begotten. So the Father's Divine is His first essential, as the soul is in man. It follows from this that the Son born to Mary is the body of that Divine soul, for what grows in the mother's womb is simply the body conceived and derived from the soul. So this is the second essential. Activities make up the third essential, since they are produced by the soul and the body working together; and anything so produced is of the same essence as the productive agents. The three essentials, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, make one in the Lord, as the soul, body and activity do in man. This is plainly demonstrated by the Lord's saying that the Father and He are one, and that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father; likewise that He and the Holy Spirit are one, since the Holy Spirit is the Divine which proceeds out of the Lord from the Father, as was fully proved from the Word above (153, 154). To prove it again, therefore, would be filling one's stomach* to overflowing, and like loading the table with food when one has eaten one's fill.

* This curious word means strictly the first stomach of a ruminant animal.

When we say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three essentials of a single God, in the same way as soul, body and activity are in man, it may look to the human mind as if the three essentials are three persons. This is impossible. But when we understand that the Father's Divine which makes up the soul, and the Son's Divine which makes up the body, and the Holy Spirit's Divine or the Divine which proceeds and makes up the activity, are the three essentials of a single God, then it can be grasped by the understanding. For God the Father is His own Divine, the Son out of the Father is His own, and the Holy Spirit out of both is His own. Since these are of one essence and one mind, they make up a single God. If, however, those three Divines are called persons, and each has attributed to Him His own property, imputation to the Father, mediation to the Son, and activity to the Holy Spirit, then the Divine essence is divided. Yet it is one and indivisible. In this case none of the three is fully God, but each is God to the power of one third*, a proposition no sane understanding can accept.

* i.e. the cube root.

Can anyone fail to see how the Trinity is in the Lord, if he considers the trinity in any human being? Every person has a soul, a body and activity; likewise the Lord, 'for in the Lord all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily,' as Paul said (Col. 2:9). Therefore the Trinity in the Lord is Divine, that in men human. Is there anyone who does not see that reason plays no part in this mystic belief that there are three Divine persons, yet only one God; and that this God, for all that He is one, is still not one person? When the reason is asleep, it can still force the mouth to speak like a parrot. When the reason is asleep, can the speech which comes from the mouth be anything but lifeless? If the mouth says one thing and the reason goes a different way and disagrees, speech must inevitably be foolish. As far as the Divine Trinity is concerned, human reason to-day is fettered, as completely as a prisoner shackled hand and foot. It can also be compared to a Vestal Virgin* buried alive for having let the sacred fire go out. Yet the Divine Trinity ought to shine like a lantern in the minds of the people who make up the church, since God in His Trinity and in the oneness of the Trinity is the ultimate of all holiness in heaven and the church. To make one God out of the soul, another out of the body and a third out of the activity is no different from making three separate parts out of those three essentials of a single person; and this is dismembering and killing him.

* The Vestals were Roman priestesses, whose duty was to maintain a sacred fire.


In my most humble opinion, this whole part of his book which covers the chapters from 163-188 is well worthy of reading because it brings to our mind extreme clarity about this problem!

This book can be found, together with the rest of his revelation, at

www.theheavenlydoctrines.org


Peace be with all of you

Lorens

[I AM ALL I AM]

.... God is Light, and He tolerates no darkness...

Lorens

G'day Lorens.

It appears from the quote in Genesis below that 'God' not only tolerated "darkness", 'God' liked "darkness" so much that 'God' even gave it a name, "Night".

Genesis 1

3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

[r~]

The trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The father is all that is the universe.
The son is life and flesh.
The spirit is held by intelligent life.

All are manifestations of the force that is existence; that controls existence.

I am
ItS
r~

[bernee51]

The trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The father is all that is the universe.
The son is life and flesh.
The spirit is held by intelligent life.

All are manifestations of the force that is existence; that controls existence.

I am
ItS
r~

The trinity is a metaphor for our existence - the basic nature of our being.

The father is the knower
the son is the known
the spirit is the act of knowing.

[The_Student]

It seems that most Christians do not even know the correct formula of the original Trinity doctrine. So I'm dedicating a thread for debate on the subject. I shall give my version and then leave it open for debate and/or comments.

In my opinion, this is the correct formula according to the original Christian teaching that was adopted from the ancient Osirian religion of Egypt: It is the Transcendent, or Bornless/Nameless, Father and the Holy (Mother) Spirit (emanation of the Father) who give birth to the Eternal Christ, which in turn splits again into the Son (spirit) and Daughter (soul/psyche) to create what is known in Qabala and Gnosticism as the Holy Tetrad.

I will add to this a bit of esoteric contemplation:

As much as we are all a separate individual psyche, we are also, in essence, truly inseparable from the source of the One-consciousness-being, so too is this so with the Holy Trinity and Holy Tetrad.

This then leads to the Mystery of the Bridal Chamber where the Daughter (soul/psyche) is married to the Son (spirit) to create the Christos (perfect offspring of the Human One or Adam) who brings forth the Sethian generation. This is a spiritual generation that is ever-coming in humanity and connotes the Second coming of Christ, hence the first Christ came as the "son of man" or Adam (this is why 'The Great Seth' is a gnostic title of the Christos) and the second Christ will be called the son of Seth, which implies a kind of alien intelligence present in humankind.

This is alluding to the ultimate evolution of consciousness where one day we shall be looked upon as very primitive for having to communicate the way we do and always having to speak to be heard (this does not mean necessarily our voices will be no longer, just that we wont have to use them as much). Our knowledge and/or experience of clairvoyance and other such psychic phenomena is only the tip of the iceberg for the evolution of consciousness. Anything that inhibits this evolution in humanity would be considered anti-Christos, or to put it plainly, anti-evolution and anti-enlightenment of humanity. The involution (anti-Christ) and evolution (Christ) of consciousness on a collective human level is constantly happening according to the teachings of Qabala.

Question for debate: What is the correct formula of the Trinity?

There is no where in the bible where you can find "Holy Trinity"

It's true we have God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[Mark75]

It seems that most Christians do not even know the correct formula of the original Trinity doctrine. So I'm dedicating a thread for debate on the subject. I shall give my version and then leave it open for debate and/or comments.

In my opinion, this is the correct formula according to the original Christian teaching that was adopted from the ancient Osirian religion of Egypt: It is the Transcendent, or Bornless/Nameless, Father and the Holy (Mother) Spirit (emanation of the Father) who give birth to the Eternal Christ, which in turn splits again into the Son (spirit) and Daughter (soul/psyche) to create what is known in Qabala and Gnosticism as the Holy Tetrad.

I will add to this a bit of esoteric contemplation:

As much as we are all a separate individual psyche, we are also, in essence, truly inseparable from the source of the One-consciousness-being, so too is this so with the Holy Trinity and Holy Tetrad.

This then leads to the Mystery of the Bridal Chamber where the Daughter (soul/psyche) is married to the Son (spirit) to create the Christos (perfect offspring of the Human One or Adam) who brings forth the Sethian generation. This is a spiritual generation that is ever-coming in humanity and connotes the Second coming of Christ, hence the first Christ came as the "son of man" or Adam (this is why 'The Great Seth' is a gnostic title of the Christos) and the second Christ will be called the son of Seth, which implies a kind of alien intelligence present in humankind.

This is alluding to the ultimate evolution of consciousness where one day we shall be looked upon as very primitive for having to communicate the way we do and always having to speak to be heard (this does not mean necessarily our voices will be no longer, just that we wont have to use them as much). Our knowledge and/or experience of clairvoyance and other such psychic phenomena is only the tip of the iceberg for the evolution of consciousness. Anything that inhibits this evolution in humanity would be considered anti-Christos, or to put it plainly, anti-evolution and anti-enlightenment of humanity. The involution (anti-Christ) and evolution (Christ) of consciousness on a collective human level is constantly happening according to the teachings of Qabala.

Question for debate: What is the correct formula of the Trinity?

Well, this is my second day as a member of this forum, so I guess this is as good a place as any to jump in. Before beginning my answer, let me first state that as a Christian minister, professor, and follower, my sole source for information is Scripture alone. Also, I am going to assume that the Trinity being refer to is the Biblical Christian Trinity.


The OP speaks of the "formula" of the Trinity. In Christian theology, to speak of the formula of the Trinity, one is referring to the way in which to properly name the Trinity. If this is the case, we get this information from The Great Commission, which is found in Matthew 28:19 –20. The formula (name) given there is, "… In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Therefore, this is the formula, or name, that we use when naming the Trinity.

However, judging by all the discussions, it seems as though the intent of the OP is actually, " What is the correct definition, or maybe doctrine, of the Christian Trinity?"

If it is the definition that is being looked for, a brief theological definition of the Trinity according to Christianity says that the Trinity consists of three distinct persons who are all of the same essence, that essence being that Divine substance of which God is. This is a summary definition; I could and would be glad to go into much greater detail if need be.

Finally, if it is the doctrine that is being looked for, a summary of that doctrine says that the Scriptures teach that there is only one God. Also, there are three distinct Persons in the Scriptures who are called God; these three Persons are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Therefore, there are three Persons who are God, yet one Divine essence, and these three Persons are all co-equal with one another.

I have given brief summaries rather than long dissertations concerning these three options which the OP seems to imply. If needed, I will be glad to go into much more detail; however, the doctrine of the Trinity is a very deep and rich topic, hence the summarizations. I hope this at something to the conversation.

[McCulloch]

Before beginning my answer, let me first state that as a Christian minister, professor, and follower, my sole source for information is Scripture alone. Also, I am going to assume that the Trinity being refer to is the Biblical Christian Trinity.

In context those are good assumptions. Yes, this debate is about the Christian concept of Trinity.

Many Christians and students of Christianity are quite confused about this particular teaching. I have heard and read many different and sometimes contradictory points of view. My question boils down to this: If there is one God composed of three persons, is it that God is a committee of three distinct entities or is it that God is one entity with three avatars?

[Mark75]

Before beginning my answer, let me first state that as a Christian minister, professor, and follower, my sole source for information is Scripture alone. Also, I am going to assume that the Trinity being refer to is the Biblical Christian Trinity.

In context those are good assumptions. Yes, this debate is about the Christian concept of Trinity.

Many Christians and students of Christianity are quite confused about this particular teaching. I have heard and read many different and sometimes contradictory points of view. My question boils down to this: If there is one God composed of three persons, is it that God is a committee of three distinct entities or is it that God is one entity with three avatars?

McCulloch, the best way that I can answer that is to say that there is indeed only One God. "God" being used as a collective name rather than a personal name. And God is what is referred to as the Godhead, so yes, this can give the impression of some sort of Holy Committee. However, this one singular essence which makes up God makes up three Persons who are completely distinct from each other.

Now, within the Godhead, there is an order. I realize that I'm getting a bit deeper into the doctrine now, so please pardon. The Father is said to be the "superior" of the Three, but not in the sense of being superior in power or rank; rather, superior in function; that is, He is the Creator, or Originator, of all things. For example, He is the designer of the creation, as well as the originator for the plan for redemption.

In revealing these plans to mankind, this is where the Word, a.k.a. the Son, comes in. His task is simply to reveal the Father to man. This is also why He is referred to as the Word by the apostle John. In the OT, He is the One called "Yahweh," and the LORD. Some use the Latin transliteration "Jehovah," but I prefer to use the name closer to the original Hebrew name Yahweh. After the Fall, we see predominantly that anytime God is speaking to a human being, it is the LORD God, or "Yahweh Elohim," (i.e. the Son) doing the speaking.

Finally, the Son is aided in His work, as are the people of God in their lives as they seek to follow the God's will for them. The One who aides them is referred to by Jesus as the "Helper." This Helper is the person of the Trinity known as the Holy Spirit. He is the One who empowers God's people as well as Jesus, when He was on this earth, to accomplish the will of the Father.

So the result is that there is a Triune Godhead whom we refer to as God. Yet this Godhead is made of one Divine essence composing three separate and distinct Persons. All three Persons are co-equal to one another in Divine attributes, and at the same time, there is an order of subordination of function that exists between the three Persons of the Godhead.

Whew! I've tried my best to boil things down as much as possible, so I hope it is at least understandable. As always, I'll be glad to clarify anything if needed.

[McCulloch]

Thank you for the clarifications.

McCulloch, the best way that I can answer that is to say that there is indeed only One God. "God" being used as a collective name rather than a personal name. And God is what is referred to as the Godhead, so yes, this can give the impression of some sort of Holy Committee. However, this one singular essence which makes up God makes up three Persons who are completely distinct from each other.

Is this concept of Godhead taught in the Bible? What does it mean that the three persons of God have one essence? I, my wife and my son are three persons who make up one family. We share some of the same genetic material, we belong to the same species, but I would not venture to say that we have a singular essence. But I'm not sure, because I don't quite know what this essence is. Can you point to any examples other than deity, where distinct beings have the same essence? That might help to clarify the meaning.

Now, within the Godhead, there is an order. I realize that I'm getting a bit deeper into the doctrine now, so please pardon. The Father is said to be the "superior" of the Three, but not in the sense of being superior in power or rank; rather, superior in function; that is, He is the Creator, or Originator, of all things. For example, He is the designer of the creation, as well as the originator for the plan for redemption.

Without any help, I think that I can find descriptions in the Bible of the distinct role of the Father in relation to the Son, to creation and to the plan of redemption.

In revealing these plans to mankind, this is where the Word, a.k.a. the Son, comes in. His task is simply to reveal the Father to man. This is also why He is referred to as the Word by the apostle John. In the OT, He is the One called "Yahweh," and the LORD. Some use the Latin transliteration "Jehovah," but I prefer to use the name closer to the original Hebrew name Yahweh. After the Fall, we see predominantly that anytime God is speaking to a human being, it is the LORD God, or "Yahweh Elohim," (i.e. the Son) doing the speaking.

This is, of course, the Christian perspective. A Jewish theologian, believing that the New Testament is not inspired, would have no cause to believe that there is any reference to multiple persons in God, would he? I think that many Christians think of Yahweh as the God of the Old Testament, God the Father. You would be teaching that this is a misunderstanding. Jesus is Yahweh.

Finally, the Son is aided in His work, as are the people of God in their lives as they seek to follow the God's will for them. The One who aides them is referred to by Jesus as the "Helper." This Helper is the person of the Trinity known as the Holy Spirit. He is the One who empowers God's people as well as Jesus, when He was on this earth, to accomplish the will of the Father.

Is the Father not spirit? Is the Father not holy? Then how is it that there is a distinct entity called the Holy Spirit that is not the Father? Didn't Jesus say that wherever two or three gather in his name, there will he be also? Why then does he need to send a third person?

[Cathar1950]

This is an interesting topic. At least I think it is.
I just finished "When Jesus became God" by Richard E Rubinstein and another book called "Constantine's Bible", I forget the author.
The Trinity is only a problem among the orthodox and was a battle fought between the Bishops of the East and the Bishops of the West along with many thinkers.
I tend to think the thinkers lost and the West won the battle with the help of the Roman leaders.

In some parts of the OT you have Yahweh Elohim and the Elohim was the pantheon of gods and possible the ancestors. El was the God Most High and He had a wife and son Yahweh Elohim and others, possibly including Satan.
El even gives Israel to Yahweh Elohim as his portion.
It sounds a like like Anu, Ea and Enlil which may not be a coincidence.