Terry Schiavo

[The Happy Humanist]

Pascal's Wager is often brought up here and in other theology forums. It basically asks the question, "If I believe in God and turn out to be wrong, what have I lost? But if I don't believe, and turn out to be wrong, I will have lost my eternal soul."

I'd like to deal with the first part of the wager here, using a very current case as an example.

If you decide to believe in the Christian God, chances are you will attempt to follow his teachings, as presented in the Bible. Apparently, among those teachings is a proscription against euthanasia, or at least that's the way God's word is currently being interpreted. (I don't think the actual issue of mercy killing is dealt with in the Bible, but there is that pesky 6th Commandment...)

Because of this, conservative Christians have glommed onto the sad case of this poor woman in Florida who, according to everything I've read, is dead in every way except officially. She is in a persistent vegetative state, which, correct me if I'm wrong, no one has ever recovered from. She is all but dead. Yet, Christians seem intent on prolonging her agony and the agony of her husband, who has suffered along with her for 15 years - all because of the commandment of this God they worship.

Now, then. What if God doesn't exist, the Bible is fiction, and there is no such commandment? What if you were wrong? Do you see what you will have lost?

If Christians get their way, which they often do, this woman's agony will be prolonged indefinitely, as will her husband's - and if Christians are wrong about the existence of God, they will have done untold damage to an entire family - for nothing.

I'll tell you what you will have lost. You will have lost your humanity.

[The Happy Humanist]

How "one" can they be when he lives with a woman who has borne him two children? He just wants her gone so that he doesn't have to think of her any more. The parents have begged him to divorce her and give them custody of her but he won't. All we have is his statement that she wouldn't want to live that way. And we have no idea whether she said that or not. Maybe this guy is nothing more than a Scott Peterson who doesn't want his wife interfering with his life.

Of all the posts I've read on this forum in the past few months, I believe this is the most disturbing, and the most appalling. How dare you even attempt to judge this man's motivations, without so much as a speck of inside knowledge? How dare you compare Michael Schiavo, who from all accounts is a model husband, with Scott Peterson, who was convicted of killing his wife and unborn child in cold blood?

How dare you?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to go Ad Hom, but this is a real hot button issue with me. Most of the rest of this forum deals in abstractions; this issue affects real live people in the here and now.

I'm watching Michael Schiavo on Larry King now. The idea that he is attempting to get out from under this marriage in order to marry his new girlfriend is beyond preposterous. He could have divorced Terri years ago, instead, he chose to remain her husband solely for the purpose of carrying out her final wishes. He has turned down 7 and 8 figure offers to relinquish his rights. There is no possible motive that I can see in this case, other than love and devotion.

To the other Christians on this board, I am fully aware that this Overcomer person does not represent the majority of Americans, nor the majority of Christians. But you all need to be very aware that this poster's views, extreme and uninformed as they are, are perceived as being representative of the Christian conservatives, and Christian conservatives are very much ascendant in American politics. And that is scary indeed, to some.

If you wish to have Christianity perceived as a philosophy of love and compassion, it is incumbent upon you to rein in the more extreme elements among you, those who have perverted Christ's message into a loveless authoritarian nightmare. Failing this, you will start losing ground in the PR war. I believe this Schiavo case may in fact represent a turning point in that war, as I think the Congress' very ill-advised move may backfire.

Yes, I do hold Christianity itself responsible for those who do not "get it," because it has allowed its message to become so muddled. I personally think that is because the message itself is murky and riddled with contradictions, but I do appreciate that the majority of you cleave to the basic message of love for your fellow man. If I am right about that, you may want to think about organizing in support of Terri's right to die, to counter these twisted elements that have co-opted your religion for their own self-righteous purposes.

Wait, Overcomer, I'm not finished with you yet...

Also, let's not forget that, whether this woman's body or brain works right, she still has a spirit. For all you and I know, she is communing with the Holy Spirit right now.

And you believe the government of the United States should drop everything and pass a special law to keep her alive, based on your particular brand of mysticism?

To think that a human being is nothing but body and brain is to miss who and what a person is. Such is the lie of evolution that says we descended from animals. It makes us sadly disposable. But having been made in the image of God, we are loved and important. And no one can say exactly what's going on in the spiritual realm with Terri Schiavo. Certainly the husband doesn't have a clue.

Why are you demonizing the husband? How do you presume to know what is in his heart? I thought Christians were supposed to worship God, not play God. Didn't someone rather important once say, "Judge not, lest ye be judged"?

OK, now I'm through.

[The Happy Humanist]

You were generalizing conservative christians and lumping them all in with an extremist minority.

First of all, Rev, I think you may be downplaying the "extremist minority" a bit. I assume by this that you mean the faction of Christians that is anti-euthanasia in general, and anti-Michael Schiavo in particular? Now, I absolutely do not have any numbers at my fingertips (perhaps you do?), I'm just going by what I'm seeing happening, especially in Washington. We have just witnessed the rare site of Congresscritters running back from vacation to pass a very ad-hoc law in the middle of the night, and the President being awakened and flown from Texas to sign it - all over one person. Obviously something earth-shatteringly important is happening to cause this wondrous sight. Let's see, we haven't been attacked in over 3 years, the war is relatively stable...ah! It's politics. What else could cause this sudden alacrity in the otherwise languid legislature? So some kind of political gain was seen to be had. Do you think that this feverish political posturing and frantic legal wrangling could be inspired by an "extremist minority," a "few", as you put it? Certainly they are extremist, and certainly they are a minority, but their sheer numbers must still represent a sizable portion of the electorate to cause this furor. Your attempt to make them out to be the equivalent of the Heaven's Gate cult is disingenuous. They have succeeded in polarizing the entire country over a single (former) woman in the space of a single weekend. Minority or not, that's a force to be dealt with. And like it or not, they carry the banner of Christianity, and no one that I have heard in the public arena, has had the cojones to call them an "extremist minority" in any kind of effort at marginalizing them. For all the average American can see, they are the voices and protest signs on the other side of the fence.

So before you heap your faux indignation on the likes of me, perhaps you should examine what's happening in your own tent, and use your reasoning and erudition to influence your fellow mainstreamists to join you in an effort to genuinely marginalize these people, perhaps drowning them out with a backlash effort aimed at demonstrating what Christian love is really all about. Atheist that I am, I would applaud you in that effort.

The second thing you are ignoring is that, like it or not, that's what it says in your Bible.

I beg to differ. YOUR quote was incorrect, your justification for your position was incorrect. The commandment clearly says not to commit murder, you claim it truly says don't kill. You sir are woefully uninformed and incorrect.

Um, actually, Rev, if I recall correctly, I never quoted it at all. I merely referred to it.

Let's go to the videotape:

You may not like the 6th Commandment, you may try to reinterpret it in a more liberal fashion to suit your own precepts of what a loving God would have in mind, but I believe you'll search in vain for any asterisks next to Exodus 2:13. You can say it's not murder, and I agree (but then I'm not Christian)...but the term "murder," at base a purely legal term with a definite human-defined meaning, has been bastardized for many other causes, from abortion to capital punishment to war. Many Christians, extremist and otherwise, have taken Exodus 2:13 and other passages to be a general admonition from God that "human life is sacrosanct, and must be preserved whenever possible," that "only God can take away what he has given," etc.

So I could hardly have misquoted it, seeing as I didn't quote it. I also didn't say it said "kill," in fact I said, "You can say it's [= euthanasia] not murder..." so I obviously knew that the majority translate the word as murder. My point was that it hardly matters, since whoever's ox is being gored gets to redefine the term murder - anti-abortionists get to call abortion "murder", freedom fighters kill but terrorists murder, etc. And again, I agree with you, mercy killing is as far from murder as it gets...but that won't stop them from calling it that.

Rev, you and I are on the same side on the euthanasia issue...but I'm not convinced on your claim that you are in a clear majority within the conservative Christian community. If that were true, why is Dr. Kevorkian in jail? Why is Terri Schiavo famous?

[Corvus]

Also, let's not forget that, whether this woman's body or brain works right, she still has a spirit. For all you and I know, she is communing with the Holy Spirit right now. To think that a human being is nothing but body and brain is to miss who and what a person is. Such is the lie of evolution that says we descended from animals. It makes us sadly disposable. But having been made in the image of God, we are loved and important. And no one can say exactly what's going on in the spiritual realm with Terri Schiavo. Certainly the husband doesn't have a clue.

I like how you inserted that jab at evolution in there, but I will have to mark you down for not mentioning abortion or liberals.

I am not sure I understand your concluding argument. If this woman has a spirit that functions irrespective of her body, how can she commune any less with a holy ghost if the body is dead?

[MagusYanam]

If you wish to have Christianity perceived as a philosophy of love and compassion, it is incumbent upon you to rein in the more extreme elements among you, those who have perverted Christ's message into a loveless authoritarian nightmare.

Unfortunately, you are completely right. We Christian mainliners have failed, failed to teach the Gospel properly, and the apparent success of fundamentalism and Christian legalism in the United States is a clear mark of that failure. Others have paid the price: we now have a nation that supports pre-emptive war, the death penalty and economic policies that will rape the economy itself and drastically increase poverty (all of which I find, I must confess, to be very un-Christian ideas).

What we Christian mainliners must do, then, is be more assertive in propagating that which we hold most dear: the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. We must teach and teach well the ideals of love and compassion, forgiveness, caring for the needy, building the just society - for all of which Jesus spoke and spoke again, repeatedly, in the Gospels. Though secular we are not, we Christians of the mainline do hold humanist (or should I rather say humanitarian?) values, just as our Founding Master did two millennia ago.

[Bent]

The only thing she can't physically do for herself is feed herself.

Oh, right. Silly me. So she's only been unable to feed herself and has needed to be fed through a tube for 15 years. My mistake, I guess there's nothing wrong then, she's perfectly fine.

She responds with eye contact and smiles when family members speak to her. She just can't speak back.

Actually I read that she was filmed for several hours, which showed that these "responses" were random and often did not occur as a result of any stimulus. Just random snippets of activity from a malfunctioning brain.

How "one" can they be when he lives with a woman who has borne him two children? He just wants her gone so that he doesn't have to think of her any more. The parents have begged him to divorce her and give them custody of her but he won't. All we have is his statement that she wouldn't want to live that way. And we have no idea whether she said that or not. Maybe this guy is nothing more than a Scott Peterson who doesn't want his wife interfering with his life.

Ah, so you know the guy personally then? I assume you must, after all, nobody could be so arrogant as to make judgements like this if you didn't know him.

Also, let's not forget that, whether this woman's body or brain works right, she still has a spirit.

...according to your system of belief. You and your extremist right-wing mates have no right to impose your beliefs or morality on to decisions that affect the lives of others. Unfortunately, that is exactly what seems to be happening to Terri.

For all you and I know, she is communing with the Holy Spirit right now.

And if such a spirit exists, what do you think she would want? I know if I was a spirit trapped inside a body that is all but destroyed, I would not want to be hanging around trapped in it.

Such is the lie of evolution that says we descended from animals. It makes us sadly disposable.

Absolute piffle. I happen to be very interested in evolution, and since I have been, I have found life (all life, not just human) much more interesting, but also fragile, valuable and precious.

Of course, that's just me. We are always hearing about all those nasty evolutionary biologists that go out killing people indiscriminately. It has always been happening, especially back in medieval times. A whole bunch of them went on these things called the crusades and ..... oh wait, I got that wrong. I just looked it up, and it was actually Christians that were behind that.

Ok, I'm sorry to everyone else. I know that sarcasm is not really good form in a serious debate, but that Overcomer character really got up my nose. And I know that crusades-type activity is not indicative of the mentality of most normal Christians. It just annoys me when some Christians accuse evolutionists of not caring about life because of their scientific orientation.

[MagusYanam]

Well, as a Christian and an evolutionist, I have to say that I have never thought it to be the case that simply because we evolved from lesser primates all we are is mere physical matter. We are of this Earth, yes, and we did evolve from earlier creatures of this Earth, but we are also reasoning, sapient beings - this is the spark of the divine within us. Evolution may not have an explanation for sapience, but that does not negate its validity.

Perhaps this is where the supernatural really comes into play. Why is it that we can know we are?

[Vladd44]

As a person who has been placed in the decision of deciding when to take someone off lifesupport bc of "minimal brain activity", I must say my heart goes out to The family, father, mother and husband are all in a very difficult and unfortunate situation.

I know what its like for people to cling to false hope, as my dad laid brain dead in a hospital bed, his siblings and my mother could only hear "brain activity". People see and hear what they want to hear, and they grasped the only straw given to them. I, on the other hand have never been very good at self delusion, and in total frustration had to get my mother aside with a few doctors and have them break it down what the "minimal" part meant.

I find it sickening that Bushler and his fellow nazis in the congress have taken it upon themselves to be so concerned about this womans feeding tube. If she was in Iraq about to be killed they wouldn't give a **** about it.

RevJP, while i applaud your reasoned christian viewpoint. I hate to be the one to tell you that you are the one in the minority. 85% of the people calling themselves xians voted for bushler and his tards. It is the height of hypocrisy for people to take advantage of this situation for political gain. I do not think its an over generalization to lump christians in the bed of the political cronies that voted for this absurd bill. After all christians supported little hitler aka W by more than 3 out of 4. I hardly say its an over generalization to imply he represents their mindset.

To Overcomer:
Get your facts straight, and try to get a news source other than the 700 club. Your comments were so far removed from the reality of the situation that I had to reverify I was reading the same topic. I thought I had stumbled onto a spoof. And shame on you for slandering a man that could have walked away 14 years ago if it was just for selfish reasons.

For all you and I know, she is communing with the Holy Spirit right now.................... And no one can say exactly what's going on in the spiritual realm with Terri Schiavo. Certainly the husband doesn't have a clue.

I wont make the comments of derision that I must confess come to mind. Simply put this conversation is neither the time nor the place. But if thats your issue, then you should support removing her tube. All you are doing is delaying her return to her creator (you belief, not mine). I dont think the christian soul is subject to starvation is it? And a good christian like yourself just couldn't resist one more jab at a guy who has been through hell the last decade and a half. Good job.

concerro, thanks for the excellent post, saved me a lot of typing. ST88 TYVVM for the link of the CT scan.

Maybe he was involved with murdering Robert Blake's wife.

We should also interrogate him about WMD in Iraq.

May of last year my father in law (I have known him since I was 6, my dad used to preach for their pastor all the time) was sent home on hospice. The family's desire to prolong his suffering was horrendous to me. As he was non responsive, they dropped water into his mouth with a dropper to keep him from dehydrating. They completely missed the purpose of him being send home to die. Rather than let him slip away in a few days, they stretched his agony for 3 weeks. Being a sore point for me, I made a promise to my wife, that if she were ever in that situation, and they had control I would put a bullet in her head and take my chances with the courts before I let her suffer like that.

IMNSHO it is the height of selfishness to force someone to continue in the condition this woman is in. I understand her family's pain and desire for their daughter to get well. I only wish they would get what they want. But I also with that there are starving people in the world. Wishing doesn't feed them, and it doesn't mean Terry is ever coming back, she is gone

[The Happy Humanist]

I find it sickening that Bushler and his fellow nazis in the congress have taken it upon themselves to be so concerned about this womans feeding tube. If she was in Iraq about to be killed they wouldn't give a **** about it.

You know, it does seem that perhaps RevJP was right, and that Congress may have "overestimated" the weight of their supposed mandate from the Christian Right. I believe the current polls show that 70% of Americans support Terri's right to die. What was Congress thinking? That those 70% aren't as likely to vote? I really think this has the potential to backfire, and perhaps bring the whole "family values" mish-mash to a head. If it becomes Topic 1 on the talking heads circuit, it could galvanize a backlash.

And this business of Bush having signed a bill while Governor of Texas giving hospitals the right to pull the plug on indigents if they couldn't pay their bill...the same guy, as President, turns around and supports legislation to save one woman from the same fate, because now it's "politically expedient" and he has to "pay back" the people that put him in office. And they thought Clinton was morally bankrupt?

[trs]

This case is not about the bible being wrong, or God existing. It is about a extreme religious group intervening in affairs that do not concern them.

Very well said.

As for the majoriy, I found Public Supports Removal of Feeding Tube for Terri Schiavo interesting.

[The Happy Humanist]

This case is not about the bible being wrong, or God existing. It is about a extreme religious group intervening in affairs that do not concern them.

Very well said.

As for the majoriy, I found Public Supports Removal of Feeding Tube for Terri Schiavo interesting.

According to my calculations, that's 64 million adult Americans* who believe Terri Schiavo should be kept alive indefinitely.

A minority? Yes. But are you comfortable calling this many people "marginal"?

-----------------------
*US Census Bureau April 2003 estimate x 31% (Gallup)